Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

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Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by jim_mich »

Maxwell's demon was an 1867 thought experiment by the Scottish physicist James Clerk Maxwell, meant to raise questions about the possibility of violating the second law of thermodynamics.
In 1867 James Clerk Maxwell wrote:But if we conceive of a being whose faculties are so sharpened that he can follow every molecule in its course, such a being, whose attributes are as essentially finite as our own, would be able to do what is impossible to us. For we have seen that molecules in a vessel full of air at uniform temperature are moving with velocities by no means uniform, though the mean velocity of any great number of them, arbitrarily selected, is almost exactly uniform. Now let us suppose that such a vessel is divided into two portions, A and B, by a division in which there is a small hole, and that a being, who can see the individual molecules, opens and closes this hole, so as to allow only the swifter molecules to pass from A to B, and only the slower molecules to pass from B to A. He will thus, without expenditure of work, raise the temperature of B and lower that of A, in contradiction to the second law of thermodynamics.
In simpler words:
An imaginary demon is placed in a doorway in a partition in the middle of a box where he allows warmer gas molecules to pass in one direction and cooler molecules to pass in the other direction. Soon one side is hot and the other side cold violating the second law of thermodynamics.
If a Maxwell's Demon could in reality sort faster warmer gas molecules from slower colder gas molecules then we would have the makings of a perpetual motion machine for we could use this separation of temperature to run a heat engine. The heat would then flow back from the hot side to the cold side.

If a mechanical mechanism could cause two moving weights to change speeds spontaneously due to their own inertia and momentum so that one weight speeds up and the other weight slows down then we would have a mechanical Maxwell's Demon where the two weights are sorted into a faster moving weight and a slower moving weight. We would then have the makings of a perpetual motion machine for we could harness the inertial momentum of the faster weight against the inertial resistance of the slower weight in order to do work. The faster weight would then slow down as the slower weight is sped up resulting in both weights again moving at their original speeds. The cycle could then repeat endlessly.

When two weights spontaneously change speeds then no energy is added. When one weight accelerates to a faster speed while the other weight decelerates to a slower speed the total kinetic energy of the two weights is conserved, but their ectropy or usable energy is increased. This would be a mechanical equivalent to Maxwell's Demon. My belief is that a mechanism that increases ectropy can drive a perpetual motion machine without breaking any laws of physics.


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re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by cloud camper »

You are describing the Euler force.

I believe JB employed it in his wheel.

But that would involve rising and falling weights.

We have been told in hundreds of pages of red highlighted, quoted, underscored and bolded text that JB never used rising and falling weights.

Rising and falling weights can never be used per the JM theory.

Happy Easter!
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Post by eccentrically1 »

The euler force is fictitious.
Maxwell's demon is impossible. You can't have a system that doesn't lose heat to its environment. If the box was impervious to heat transfer, then you couldn't get work from it anyway!
Could a mechanical version be constructed? Only in a thought experiment. It would violate the laws of motion, and, in a mechanical twist of nature, you wouldn't be able to get work from it.
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Post by jim_mich »

Maxwell's Demon is very difficult to construct, but it's not theoretically impossible. All that is required is a heat diode. Heat is thought to consist of the sum of the speeds of individual molecules. A Maxwell's Demon would simply need to act as a heat diode allowing only faster molecules to pass. Someday someone will figure out how to make a heat diode mechanism small enough to sort molecules according to their speed, much like a spring tensioned trap door. An alternately method would be to make a light diode that works in the infrared range allowing radiant heat to flow one way but not back the other way.

Once a molecule sized trap door is invented, the Maxwell's Demon device would spontaneously get cold on one side and hot on the other. The hot side would be insulated and pass its heat to a heat engine. The cold side would be heat conductive to absorb heat from the environment and from the heat engine.


A mechanical Maxwell's Demon type device need only be a device that transfers motion from a slower moving mass to a faster moving mass. There are examples in nature where this already happens. A spinning ice-skater is one example. No laws of motion are broken by such a device.


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re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by eccentrically1 »

The hot side would be insulated and pass its heat to a heat engine. The cold side would be heat conductive to absorb heat from the environment and from the heat engine.
Really?
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re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by eccentrically1 »

There are examples in nature where this already happens. A spinning ice-skater is one example.
Oh gosh, jim. You can't be serious.
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Re: re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by jim_mich »

eccentrically1 wrote:
The hot side would be insulated and pass its heat to a heat engine. The cold side would be heat conductive to absorb heat from the environment and from the heat engine.
Really?
If you had a Maxwell's Demon type device in a partition between two vessels, then one side would become warmer than the environment and one side would become colder than the environment. The cold side would absorb heat energy so as to provide the input heat that is converted to output energy by the heat engine.

If a Maxwell's Demon could be developed, then the rest of the system is simple engineering.


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Re: re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by jim_mich »

eccentrically1 wrote:
There are examples in nature where this already happens. A spinning ice-skater is one example.
Oh gosh, jim. You can't be serious.
A simple lever will allow a slower moving weight to push a faster moving weight. A wheel (or pulley) is a fancy continuous lever. A compound pulley having two diameters can receive slower motion at its small diameter and transfer that motion to its large diameter and push a faster moving weight.

A skater extends her arms. Motion transfers from her slower moving body to her faster moving arms. Her body slows down even slower while her outstretched arms (which are moving faster than her body due to being more distant from her body) accelerate even faster in order to keep up with her spinning body. It may seem confusing at first look, but take the time to understand what happens and you will see motion transfer from her body to her extending arms. Her body stays at a common radius and slows down. Her arms extend out to a larger radius and must speed up so as to keep up with her body, though the rotation speed of her arms slows down to match with her body.

As I said, a spinning ice skater is an example in nature where motion transfers from a slower moving mass to a faster moving mass. If this transfer were heat energy transferring from cold to hot then it would go against the Second Law of Thermodynamics. But this is motion energy that transfers, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics is not broken.


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Post by greendoor »

I personally believe that there was a time in history not very long ago when numerous inventors discovered self-running compressed air motors could work. The economic impact of this is obvious, and fortunately for those in power, World War broke out which conveniently made the whole thing go away. But it was enough of a threat that even Disney had to be used to rubbish the whole notion of perpetual motion inventors and maintain the status quo.

It is very easy to make a piston engine run on compressed air. It is also easy to recover unwanted motion by putting air pumps on the wheels, use them for braking and recharge the air cylinder. So far - no free energy.

What happens when compressed air expands? It gets very cold (ever seen ice forming on a tyre tube releasing air?). In a compressed air engine, the engine becomes a heat sink. It sucks ambient heat energy out of the air, just like a heat pump. We are familiar with heat pumps that input 1kW of electrical energy and output 4kW of heat energy ... the extra energy comes from the ambiant air.

In my opinion, there is a very dark period of history where several compressed air motor inventors were suppressed by very heavy handed tactics ...

If you want to think about this idea, consider this:

Don't let heat escape: mount your compressors INSIDE the compressed air cylinder. Efficiency won't matter so much because the heat energy will just leak into the compressed air tank, raising the pressure. Certainly insulate this tank extremely well. The heat flowing into the system enters via the engine cylinders - so the conventional "cooling" system is reversed and becomes the cold sink that allows energy to flow into the system.

Also - you don't need high pressure pumps to recharge the cylinders. All you need is a pressure differential - it can be as low as a few PSI. The secret is to make use of equalisation, which is free. Any low pressure exhausted air which you wish to pump back into the cylinder can be brought up to cylinder pressure instantly for free by simply connecting it to the cylinder and allowing the pressure to equalise. Then, your pump has the same pressure on both sides, and only needs a small pressure differential to squeeze the new air back in. Yes, it takes energy to push this air back in. But if we have a system that is sucking in a lot of additional energy from the environment, we can find that our pre-charged compressed air vehicles can run for a very long time indeed ...

Think about it another way - these are actually solar powered vehicles. We don't get excited about the idea of electric vehicles powered by photovoltaics ... no surprises there. We don't get surprised about heat pumps making far more heat energy than they consume ... we know where the energy comes from.

I believe Bessler found a mechanical equivalent of the heat pump concept ... I won't labour that point here because i've said enough in the past.
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Re: re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by eccentrically1 »

If you had a Maxwell's Demon type device in a partition between two vessels, then one side would become warmer than the environment and one side would become colder than the environment. The cold side would absorb heat energy so as to provide the input heat that is converted to output energy by the heat engine.

If a Maxwell's Demon could be developed, then the rest of the system is simple engineering.
Jim, if it was absorbing heat from the environment then it's solar powered; no violation.

For more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_ ... ental_work
Last edited by eccentrically1 on Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by eccentrically1 »

jim_mich wrote: A simple lever will allow a slower moving weight to push a faster moving weight. A wheel (or pulley) is a fancy continuous lever. A compound pulley having two diameters can receive slower motion at its small diameter and transfer that motion to its large diameter and push a faster moving weight.

A skater extends her arms. Motion transfers from her slower moving body to her faster moving arms. Her body slows down even slower while her outstretched arms (which are moving faster than her body due to being more distant from her body) accelerate even faster in order to keep up with her spinning body. It may seem confusing at first look, but take the time to understand what happens and you will see motion transfer from her body to her extending arms. Her body stays at a common radius and slows down. Her arms extend out to a larger radius and must speed up so as to keep up with her body, though the rotation speed of her arms slows down to match with her body.

As I said, a spinning ice skater is an example in nature where motion transfers from a slower moving mass to a faster moving mass. If this transfer were heat energy transferring from cold to hot then it would go against the Second Law of Thermodynamics. But this is motion energy that transfers, and the Second Law of Thermodynamics is not broken.
But it would break the laws of motion.
A skater's body is one mass, not two. It took energy conversion to get her mass spinning in the first place, and to keep it spinning. Conservation of angular momentum is a dead horse.
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re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by eccentrically1 »

jim wrote:Her arms extend out to a larger radius and must speed up so as to keep up with her body, though the rotation speed of her arms slows down to match with her body.
Huh? Her arms speed up and slow down?
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Post by jim_mich »

Huh? Her arms speed up and slow down?
Yes.
The rotational RPM of her arms and body slows down.
The linear velocity of her arms speeds up.

Let me explain, since you fail to understand.
If she had a ball in her hand and let go the ball, then the ball would continue moving at the same speed it was moving just before it was let go. This is its equivalent linear speed.
If she let go the ball when arms were extended then the ball will be moving faster than when she let go a ball when arm were retracted. The speed of her hands are moving faster when her arms are spread out than when her arm are retracted, even though her body spin is slower when her arms are spread out.

Her RPM slows down but the velocity of her arms speeds up. There are formulas available that define mathematically the results of moving a weight outward in a rotating environment such as a wheel or an ice skater.

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re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by eccentrically1 »

The rotational RPM of her arms and body slows down.
The linear velocity of her arms speeds up.
Yes, I know that.
The skater is one mass. A wheel, and everything in it, is one mass. If one weight slows down and another speeds up, exchanging velocities, then to the wheel, nothing has changed. The weights have changed position and velocity, but
jim wrote:When two weights spontaneously change speeds then no energy is added. When one weight accelerates to a faster speed while the other weight decelerates to a slower speed the total kinetic energy of the two weights is conserved, but their ectropy or usable energy is increased.
their "usable energy" has not increased. If that were true, they've created energy from motion, and all sorts of laws are broken.
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re: Ectropy and Maxwell's Demon.

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi Jim_Mich,
Her RPM slows down but the velocity of her arms speeds up. There are formulas available that define mathematically the results of moving a weight outward in a rotating environment such as a wheel or an ice skater.
It would all be lost to friction, and the energy needed to retract her arms against CF, Bessler Wheel was not a CF wheel unless he had another energy or force input, the small push needed to set the wheels in motion could not have been enough for CF to kick in (or enough to spin a ice skater ) CF is not a input for a gravity wheel it is the governor!

With respect Trevor
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