My First Post

[ken_behrendt]

Wheeler...

The period and frequency of a swinging pendulum are independent of the mass of its weight for the same reason that two weights of different mass will experience the same acceleration and fall the same distance during a time interval when dropped from the same height.

However, when one shortens the length of a pendulum, its weight need only drop a shorter distance before its upstroke begins as compared to a longer pendulum. Thus, in a time interval of a given amount, the shorter pendulum will complete more swings than the longer pendulum and will have a shorter period, but higher frequency than the longer pendulum.

Dumping some mass from a pendulum's weight has no effect on its period or frequency. Yes, the pendulum weight will lose a portion of its kinetic energy that is carried off by the lost mass, but this has no effect on its period or frequency. In fact, if you made a special two part pendulum with two connecting rods and arranged it so that it could split into two separate weights during one of its swings, you would notice that the period and frequency of both pendula were identical to each other and to the former period and frequency of the composite pendulum weight.

ken

[Wheeler]

Well Thank you Jim Mich and Ken for this enlightenment of the basic principal.

So as you both already know, the quest is simply to make the rod become shorter, as I believe Ken has recently said.
It seems simple, but I think it must do exactly or near the same as a child who tucks his legs in and then out on a rope swing with a seat.
The system must pump itself, or shorten it's length.
Can this be done?

I think with some tests and thought, we can prove it will or will not work.

Can we make it happen as Jim Mich said, and change the cm to a different location as it swings?
I think we can.

[ken_behrendt]

A child that "pumps" a swing to achieve greater height leans backward on the seat at the top of one swing and maintains this position throughout the downstoke and next upstroke of the swing. At the end of the next upstroke, the child then pulls his body back into an upright position again an maintains this position until the end of the next swing's upstroke at which time he again leans back to begin the cycle again.

The reason he swings higher at the end of every other upstroke of the swing is because he expends muscular chemical energy to raise his body up which, of course, increases the gravitational energy of his body which can then be added to the kinetic energy of the kid/swing system at the end of the next upstroke of the swing when it has return to its starting position and he again leans back.

I can not think of any way to achieve this effect with some sort of shifting of the CM of the pendulum weight because, ultimately, it would require that a weight be raised to power each alternating swing of the pendulum to a greater height.

ken

[Wheeler]

I can almost hear the answer in your words.

I can not think of any way to achieve this effect with some sort of shifting of the CM of the pendulum weight because, ultimately, it would require that a weight be raised to power each alternating swing of the pendulum to a greater height.

[Wheeler]

Seems to need some jet engine properties!

Is there expansion and contraction involved?

[jasinlishi]

This post was a pretty good success at generating Ideas, I have been following intently...
I have not posted as I am in th heat of producing a product. Not a PM.

I have been thinking ALOT lately about PM, the different theories, pendulums, wheels, and the like. I have a thought as it relates to a product I am developing...

So here is a picture... though it is not to scale by any means... the outer perimeter of the pendulum ring are inductance coils, simply picking up the magnetic pulses generated by the four magnets... The gear mech is prevents the pendula from moving in a clockwise rotation, and also trips a switch, the switch starts a motor whichs runs for a set amount of time when the switch is activated, (seconds) or precisely just enough time for the pendulum to reach it's apex, when gravity will again take controll.

A simple test - take a pencil, and a wooden ruler, slide the pencil through the hole in the end and you now have a very crude pendulum...
With the pencil as the pivot pin, raise the ruler to the top of it's swing and let go of it pay attention to how close the pendulum gets to the the apex(when it could swing all the way around) under its own power (gravity) the only time the motor needs to run is the 20 or so degrees left to complete the circle... Could this create over unity?


The electronics are simple
inductance coils
dc Motor
Ultra capacitor
Lithium polymer batteries.

Thanks
Jason

[Wheeler]

Jason
I sincerely think this will work.
I think there was once posted an experiment that had claimed was working.
It was something like Russian antigravity motor.
Seemed to fade away.
Do you think you can generate some current as the pendulum swings?

[Paul]

HI, uuhh sorry but this is not an overunity device. You must provide energy to this system. You cannot take energy from it. If you take energy you decrease the angle of rotation of the pendulum.
Paul

[Wheeler]

So your design is just a way to lift a weight with a motor?
You can surely go beyond this.

[ken_behrendt]

Sometime last year or the year before that, I stumbled across an interesting website of an inventor or company that claimed they had an OU gravity motor that the above device / discussion brought back to my mind.

The invention was basically just a wheel with a bunch of weights on its rim, but the weights were not fixed to the rim. Rather, each weight was attached to a small solenoid and the system was arranged so that, when a weight was on the descending side of the wheel, the solenoids there would be enegized and the weight would be raised / shifted out farther toward the rim. When, however, a weight found itself on the ascending side of the wheel, its solenoid would be de-energized and a spring would then pull the weight back closer to the axle of the wheel. Because solenoids were used, the shifting of the weights could take place very rapidly.

Anyway, while this invention certainly did draw electrical power when in use, I believe that the inventor(s) claimed that, once spinning, the wheel actually produced more electrical power (via an attached generator) than was required to operate the solenoids. Supposedly, this extra power could then be tapped to perform useful work in the environment.

Of course, I saw this material a year or more ago and have heard nothing further about it since so I have to assume that their claims of OU/PM could not be verified.

I still can not find this site again...does it sound familiar to anyone here?

ken

[ovyyus]

The "claims of OU/PM could not be verified" bit sounds real familiar :P

[ken_behrendt]

Quite true...that seems how all of these devices that I have heard about in the past several decades tend to wind up. They have their moment in the Sun and gain some local attention. Then it comes time to "prove" that they work and are worthy of investment. It's usually at this point that the problems and accusations start. The inventor will claim that the reason others have not been able to replicate his invention is because they did not contruct it properly, it was not adjusted properly, the tests performed on it were "flawed" (in the inventor's opinion, of course), or that there is some sort of conspiracy afoot to prevent the invention from making it to market.

When the fog finally lifts, all that is left is a gadget gathering dust in someone's basement or garage and another colorful entry into the annals of the PM history...

ken

[Georg Künstler]

Hi Ken,
an upstanding and downsitting child you can simulate with a roller with an unequal mass distribution.

Instead of a ball use a rolling cylinder, there you can easyly adjust a unequal mass.


the future has begun

Georg

[jasinlishi]

Please refrain from comparing this device....
It is simpler than you make it out to be...

Think about the flashlight that produces electricity to power an led... if your not familiar google "shake light"

Simply when you shake the light, in a similiar fashion to "beating off"
a neodymium magnet passes through a coil, the energy forces positive and negative electrons through to a capacitor... not a regular cap. as an elec. engineer knows a cap with disperse it's energy in one fleeting burst.
An ultra capacitor is used it grabs and stores the energy and then releases it more so like a battery.. uniquely it can charge instantly, then discharge slowly...

so take an everyday pendulum
modify it so it can only swing in one direction.
Take it to the top and drop it, see where it stops, "begins to swing the other way" it is far beyond 180 degrees closer to 350 degrees.

My design simply places four nedymium magnets on the end of a pendulum. These pass by a whole bunch of inductance coils, the whole time generating electricity, stored in a small bank of ultra capacitors.
Once the pendulum reaches it's stopping point, "going the other direction", the gear mech triggers a small motor to run enough to flop the pendulum beyond the top again, then shuts off. The cycle repeats hopefully creating over unity.
The coils are made of copper wire, and are therefore not magnetic, they may be subject to forces described by the lenz law.

The principle is to use the forces of gravity to produce and store power. Then use some of the power to help the pendulum continue.
THIS is not a motor, that runs a generator, that runs a motor...etc

I posted this here, because of the intellect of the members, I am interested in all forms of PM... Right now this!
If you have any other questions please feel free... Disprove the theory behind this device, so I can stop thinking about it...PLEASE.

Thanks
J-

[amateur]

I didn't review this thread to see if this is already covered... Maybe this will be enough to help you stop thinking about it.

Search for experiments involving
magnet copper tube pipe lenz

(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ma ... gle+Search)

first two hits I got:
http://nerds.unl.edu/pages/mamres/pages ... Z_law.html
http://www-d0.fnal.gov/~raymond/rh_lenz1.htm

While your coils are not "magnetic", currents are induced in them which in turn produce an opposing magnetic field, which is likely to slow your pendulum, robbing it of its inertia, and thus it will not make it up to your expected 350deg position. It is unlikely that you will generate enough passing the coils to run the motors to drive the "rotator" pendulum up to and across the top. (Within commonly accepted physics you will not. To the best of my current knowledge, anyone with unaccepted physics to accomplish this has not been able to disseminate that knowledge widely enough to be of use to us. )