Perpetual Motion is Impossible

[agor95]

I think gravity is the source of the energy. The unidirectional force of gravity is transformed into rotational force by the paths taken by the weights (we can word it differently if we wish, because gravity isn't a force).
Perpetual motion being impossible because gravity is a conservative force is an assumption.

There are ways of thinking that hold use trapped. They are effective and useful. Repeatable by others and can be explained.

Gravity is an effect and plays it part. One should not assume anything except take onboard it accelerates.

All the Best

[agor95]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_assist

The "assist" is provided by the motion of the gravitating body as it pulls on the spacecraft. Any gain or loss of kinetic energy and linear momentum by a passing spacecraft is correspondingly lost or gained by the gravitational body, in accordance with Newton's Third Law.

Note assist is in quotes; indicating it's a misnomer.

Agreed a Gravitational Slingshot is not what we are looking for. However it is not the only one.

All the Best

[agor95]

I have my theory , but i also have a big fat hole in the theory i cant figure out , well according to common sense and accepted fact i should have a big fat hole in the theory so i dont mind too much :)

We all have to pay our taxes so we can acceleration into the future. As we want the wheel to accelerate.

All the Best

[eccentrically1]

Hi All

As we work at communicating with others a use of analogies will arise.
They are used to try and explain the behaviour. But like most fall short of a full picture.

That is the case here for the slingshot to be gravity induced the momentum
gained by a satellite. The slingshot around the Earth by crossing it's orbital path on the trailing side.
Thus taking a minute amount of orbital speed from the Earth causing the orbit to reduce.

So it is fair to say the above Gravity Slingshot is impossible within a wheel!

However we are talking about a Momentum Slingshot were acceleration presented by gravity
is replaced by acceleration presented by a curved path of a mass.

There is no analogy for this Momentum Slingshot process.

All the Best

Agreed a Gravitational Slingshot is not what we are looking for. However it is not the only one.

Any gain or loss of kinetic energy and linear momentum by a passing spacecraft is correspondingly lost or gained by the gravitational body, in accordance with Newton's Third Law.

Momentum isn’t even a force we could exploit. Momentum is just a property of an object. Mass X velocity.

For that matter , any force is not the answer; conservative, fictitious, non conservative. Ateotd, the laws of motion are inviolate.
iow, we can’t overcome frictions losses with a force of any type, due to the 3rd law.

[JUBAT]

You know with John Collins latest clue releases, I think it might be high time we start experimenting with ropes and pulleys. Bessler said if he added ropes, pulleys, and crossbars it would move with more power or something to that effect.

So what has JC said so far? He thinks the solution involves 5 weights, 5 cords, 10 pulleys, and the cords follow an N-shaped path. Now N-shaped could be N shaped or Z shaped depending on how you look at it. If you follow any 3 legs of the dodecagram you get a triangle where 2 sides are longer. You can also sort of get this N shape with 2 pulleys used in the standard configuration like this:

Figure 9.26.jpg (12.49 KiB) Viewed 677 times

- taken from https://collegephysicsanswers.com/

Of course now if you set up pulleys and cords to pull in one direction like the picture shows, you have the problem of pulling the other way. With ropes and pulleys you don't get a free lunch in both directions - if you lift a weight, you have to move quite a bit of rope for what movement of weight you get in return. Then at some point that weight must pull the rope back into the pulley arrangement so that it can be lifted again. True the ropes can kind of pull back through by slipping if they aren't in tension, but the wheel would get really tangled up with cord and pulleys.

I'm guessing a standard pulley arrangement is not what JC has in mind.

There are many other neat arrangements such as diagrams 1 and 2: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Com ... _282282247 - notice how the middle one looks like lazy tongs.

So what kind of cord and pulley arrangement could be used?

Well I started thinking of something where there are 5 weights on arms arranged similarly to mt21 and each weighted arm has a pulley on it. Then run a rope through all the pulleys in a 5 pointed star configuration. Perhaps weights that are more prone to falling would help to raise the weights on the ascending side - just a little - by leveraging the weights all off of each other.

Another possibility is a proportional travel arrangement which is basically how pulleys and cords work anyway - where your descending weight would move X distance and the ascending weight would move X/2 or even X/4 distance. All it takes is the weight on the ascending side to be pulled in just a little - and it wouldn't take much - to create an imbalance.

It doesn't take too much imagination to start envisioning a connectedness principle where all the weights in a wheel are hooked via pulleys and cords in a zig zag fashion that would use the force from the fallen weights to create leverage to help lift the weights - just a little - on the ascending side.

[agor95]

Momentum isn’t even a force we could exploit. Momentum is just a property of an object. Mass X velocity.

For that matter , any force is not the answer; conservative, fictitious, non conservative. Ateotd, the laws of motion are inviolate.
iow, we can’t overcome frictions losses with a force of any type, due to the 3rd law.

Hi eccentrically1

I agree the 'laws of motion' are inviolate. I am only using the word 'Force' as a communication aid.
The foundation is the properties of mass [size, velocity]. Then the transfer of velocity from one to another.

Regards

[WaltzCee]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_assist

The "assist" is provided by the motion of the gravitating body as it pulls on the spacecraft. Any gain or loss of kinetic energy and linear momentum by a passing spacecraft is correspondingly lost or gained by the gravitational body, in accordance with Newton's Third Law.

Note assist is in quotes; indicating it's a misnomer.

Agreed a Gravitational Slingshot is not what we are looking for. However it is not the only one.

All the Best

[WaltzCee]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_assist

The "assist" is provided by the motion of the gravitating body as it pulls on the spacecraft. Any gain or loss of kinetic energy and linear momentum by a passing spacecraft is correspondingly lost or gained by the gravitational body, in accordance with Newton's Third Law.

Note assist is in quotes; indicating it's a misnomer.

Agreed a Gravitational Slingshot is not what we are looking for. However it is not the only one.

All the Best