Gravity wheels with a fundamental difference

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Robinhood,
Quelles sont les liaisons entre le support des gros poids et le levier rouge orange?

Hi Robinhood,
What are the connections between the weight carrier and the red orange lever?

[Robinhood46]

The heavy weights can swivel on the red arm, and the grey lever, when it opens at 3 o'clock ish, causes the swivelling of the heavy weights.
The bottom weight goes to the top and the red lever climbs up a rung of the ladder.
Nothing is to scale, it is simply to show the movement in the third dimension.

[Robinhood46]

I have managed to find a way of getting a simulation, of the desired movement.
I did need to modify the weighted arm, so as to have a single weight, as apposed to an arm with a weight each end.
We can see that the whole mechanism hovers on the descending side. Also that the weight finds itself at a different position in relation to the wheel with each step the arm steps back.
The 24 sections of the wheel give 15° between each step, that the arm moves back when it hovers on the way down. If we can imagine the previous image with the weighted arm, we can see that if the swivel of the arm steps back 15°, the weight will step back 30°, because it is leapfrogging the weight which is the other end of the arm. This would imply that the weights are against one face of the wheel and they are rotated vertically using the missing dimension of Algodon't, and the thickness of the wheel is determined by the length of the weighted rod, because it will find itself horizontal, parallel to the central axle, halfway through it's travels.
Another interesting thing is the similarity to what JC has just published with regard his findings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1sxHYVA9J8&t=39s

[Tarsier79]

Hi RH. I see the problem with the lighter weight...In gravity, the COM falls, then sits poorly around 7:00.

Advancing or retarding around the wheel has to mean something, or perform a specific function... IE, to leave more weight on the downgoing side, or to reduce the weight on the lifting side. Ultimately, the ideal way to do this would be to lift weight both sides, which would also lead to an OB: Which then negates the need for the weight to shift around the wheel.

Perhaps you have another take on it?

[Robinhood46]

The sitting poorly at 7.00 is only occurring because of the way Algodoo makes things far more complicated than they have to be. In the real world the light weight would be hanging around at 6.00, waiting for the wheel to catch up with it. It would still be a negative aspect, but a lot less negative than in the simulation.
My take on the advancing or retarding of the mass, in relation to the wheel, is the effect it has on the duration of time the weights add, or subtract energy from the wheel. By causing the weight to "climb up a rung of the ladder" every rotation, on the downward side, you still have all the forces of the heavy and the light weight being applied to the wheel, but for a longer duration. In a way it is a bit like extending the length of the downward side, but not the upward. If the heavy weight is stepped back 10 CM (for example) this means the wheel has to rotate an additional 10 CM for the weight to find itself at BDC. The distance travelled is greater than the ascending side, without the need to shift the weight further from the centre.
As we know, or at least many of us think, the wheel really wasn't very powerful. The difference between the increased duration of the heavy and light weight on the descending side - the light weight falling back at 6 = hardly anything. Multiply that by as many crossbars as you can get in it, and it will pump some water or raise some bricks.
What i find interesting is that if the answer is to be found somewhere around here, it certainly would cover, not only a lot of the clues Bessler mentions, and why he didn't want anyone to see it, but also the remarks of it's simplicity and the surprise that nobody had already thought of it, and how a carpenters lad can build one.
I can't get a sim to function correctly, which is why i knocked the last simulation up, just to show the desired effect. The difference between the light weight and the heavy weight, is primordial for it to achieve anything, Algodoo forces the addition of weight where it really doesn't want to be, and where it wouldn't need to be in the real world. I don't know if WM2D has the same problem with overlapping or passing through objects when they are small or they interact at high speeds, or have a lot of torque, but Algodoo can't cope with it. Saying that, adjusting the frequency to 60htz has made it perform a little better by reducing some of the hiccups.
It's a shame it's winter, because my wheel is outside where it's bloody freezing, and i don't have any electricity either, until the sun rises a bit higher in the sky.

[nebollinger]

What I see in mt138 drawing is a balance of up and down forces and left and right balance as in a seesaw.

http://www.orffyre.com/mt121-143.html

When you combine these you get a small force being able to shift the balance and use it to make a seesaw go up and down.
Norman

[Fletcher]

Hey Norman .. you've been around discussion forums for a while - why don't you start your own topic and thread on your theory - then we can discuss it in one place and in context ..

cheers ..

[gravitationallychallenged]

What I see in mt138 drawing is a balance of up and down forces and left and right balance as in a seesaw.

http://www.orffyre.com/mt121-143.html

When you combine these you get a small force being able to shift the balance and use it to make a seesaw go up and down.
Norman

Norman, you are thinking along the same lines as myself! Bessler made a comment about modifying the hammer toy configuration in order to make it useful.

What if we were to arrange the hammers (weighted) levers so they were at the ends of the poles and shift them, simultaneously, towards and away from the axle? What if we arranged the levers so the upside (of rotation) lever swung inwards, under its hinge, towards the axle and the downside (of rotation) lever swung upwards, over its pivot, towards the rim? What if we dropped some heavier weights near the center (axle of the wheel) of the mechanism to force the levers to swing rapidly, uphill, before the mechanism rotated to become parallel with the ground? Wouldn't we achieve at least 45 degrees of overbalance and torque induced rotation after every 180 degrees of rotation of the wheel?

Coincidentally, Bessler wrote that his earlier wheels made scratching noises that sounded like poles rubbing against each other. His later wheels didn't make those noises. Perhaps shifting poles were replaced with cables and pulleys to reduce clearance problems and frictional losses. Witnesses heard 8 impacts per revolution coming from the downside of his wheels. Four pairs of weights would produce 8 impacts. Staggered mechanisms swinging side by side within his narrow wheels would have required very close clearances. Bessler wrote that if his wheel was given a sneaky shove from the side it would have come grinding to a halt. That would coincide with the configuration I described. -Jim

[nebollinger]

Gravitywheel could you explain your idea a little more.

What I envision is a rope or belt on two pulleys so that one goes up and the other goes down such that one moves toward the axle where its rotational leverage is less and the other moves away from the axle increasing its leverage such that a small force makes that movement resulting in a larger force. The one weight would only move half way to the axle allowing the other one moving to the circumference of the arc.

So when vertical the movement unbalances very little work is required...

Norman

[nebollinger]

The real problem is where does that small force come from?
I have not figured that part out yet.

Norman

[agor95]

What I see in mt138 drawing is a balance of up and down forces and left and right balance as in a seesaw.

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