Was Johann Bessler a fraudster?

[Fletcher]

JB you wont get any argument from me that ultimately a real machine demonstration needs to be built showing how the wool could have been pulled over peoples eyes.

In order to build such a machine it first needs to be understood what is physically possible with the technology of those times and real experiments undertaken.

If it turns out that it is possible to make a large clockwork wheel with the power to lift weights and rewind itself when the weights are lowered then that would cast some doubt on the Bessler story.

As you are saying words are not enough it needs to be demonstrated and to begin with I will be attempting simulations to explore that possibility.

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

Background .. A large clockwork wheel was said to be made by Wagner that he claimed could replicate B's. Merseburg wheel tests i.e. that it could do the same work tests ( lifting boxes of bricks, lifting stampers ) and could obviously be moved / translocated, and could be stopped and then turn and accelerate in either direction .. I know he made an engraving of it [ John Collin's DT ] with its gearing etc but I suspect he never physically tested it with witnesses present to vouch for it which is recorded - someone else might know whether it was actually built and tested, or never got off the drawing board ..

As I remember it Wagner claimed there was no reason that a wheel should have to rotate as fast as B's. and his would do the same work but at a much slower rpm that it could sustain - iow's his was only capable of rotating quite slowly though he could up the power by storing more internal PE .. and this is an important point because W's. wheel would also not have the ridiculously high acceleration rate of a B. runner - this immediately discounts a clockwork wheel besides the fact that it needs constant rewinding ..

Ovyyus ( Bill McMurtry ) from Tasmania was a prominent, experienced, and knowledgeable member here for decades until more recently - he often took the devils advocate position to explore all angles and give balance to arguments - he was of the firm opinion that whatever solution B. had found ( be that real or fraud ) must have been a type of heat engine ( he designed one based on a Stirling Heat Engine that he thought could replicate the work tests but it was not built afaik - of course it needed stored energy / fuel to be replenished but it was to prove a principle ) - another member eccentrically1 was 100% convinced that another viable solution was to use an environmental force citing things like the Atmos clock and of course Drebbel's clock 100 years before Bessler which used diurnal temperature and pressure changes to drive and continually rewind a mechanism - the problem was being able to do any amount of decent work even remotely similar to B's. tests with something the size and width of his runners .. not remotely possible, even today .. I'll accept that an environmental force could still meet the definition of Perpetual Motion in the 1700's etc, at a stretch ..

For many years I also thought an in-situ ambient environmental force was probably the answer to the extra momentum the runners accumulated, and provided the power output to do work and overcome frictions etc ( known technologies ) - and I played around with aerodynamic lift theories and air and fluid pressure forces etc, to no avail ..

These alternative to gravity-only theories by competent members and my own dipping of toes into aerodynamic lift and drag forces theory etc forced me to keep returning to an inconvenient and inescapable contextual fact which I shared at various times - the on steroids acceleration of B's. runners to operating rpm in only 1 to 2 turns ( some said 1 to 1 1/2 turns ) ..

The importance of that inconvenient fact is that any replication method, be that gravity-only, fraudulent, sequestered environmental forces, heat engines, or some other energy source from the in-situ environment, must be able to replicate ( for an equivalent size ) the same acceleration rates ..

And this applies to the gravity-only crowd as well - we can't even get a wheel to go into asymmetric torque mode and gain even the smallest amount of momentum - we can't even get it to get up to 40 rpm in 100 turns, let alone 1 1/2 turns ..

So use whatever method you can think of to replicate B's. wheels tests, or to argue for a fraud based claim - but never forget the very sobering thought that whatever theory invoked must also have the " real " potential and ability to produce the same astoundingly quick acceleration range of 1 to 2 turns ..

** I'd happily accept that Karl was naive dunce and was duped, and that the witnesses were bungling idiots who signed the certificates, and that B. was a fraud, IF another viable method of doing the same work/tests and having the same acceleration from a standing start could be replicated using the technologies of the time and meeting the definition for Perpetual Motion at the time - we could all go on holiday ..


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[daxwc]

It's worth noting that lifting water to a height of 350 meters with a single pump would be a significant energy expense. Achieving this with Bessler's technology would have been incredibly challenging, if not impossible, without modern advancements or a series of daisy-chained pumps. This adds to the skepticism around his claims. However, I don't believe Bessler ever said he could do it in one shot.

[Roxaway59]

John I can understand Karl not opting for Besslers wheel if it was not suitable for his own needs but if Besslers wheel could industrialize his country and make it more powerful then why would he not jump at the opportunity to either buy it himself or help buy it with a group of others?

Bessler was writing a lot about the industrial benefits of the wheel so it seems odd that Karl would not recognize the benefits for his country.

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

[John Collins]

Karl had already sent his superintendent of works to witness the Newcomen’s engine and report back to him, which was an assured working machine with good ‘reviews’ much better for flooded mines than Bessler’s wheel could be. Karl had invested a lot of money in industrialising his country, but he was a very careful investor. Perhaps he did not see the advantages of Bessler’s wheel enough to buy it.

JC

[Roxaway59]

Hi Fletcher it sounds like you are getting a bit upset at my attempt to ask these questions and I know that over the years a lot of things have happened that I'm not aware of and you've been there to see it but just remember that we are on the same side.

What ever happened over this story of Johann Bessler there is a logical explanation but what that explanation is remains a mystery for now.

Trying to make a working gravity wheel has so far not worked and trying to prove Bessler is a fraud has so far not worked.

I didn't really think about this when I started this topic but your post made me consider something I hadn't really taken seriously before.

I think for now I will keep that thought to myself.

Graham
Playing devils advocate

[Tarsier79]

Hi Graham

IMO, you don't need to build a mechanical model if you can explain how it could be done, enough to replicate the power and acceleration Besslers wheel achieved.

Estimates vary on the guestimated power output demonstrated, but they are generally around 75-125 Watts, or thereabouts (yes others are more or less). Try and get that out of a mechanism just for the lift test, which I believe happened more than once up and down. Also with the translocation and other tests, it would have to have accelerated up multiple times during the demonstration, and tell me how big that mechanism needs to be. Now fit that in his wheel, and have a second mechanism for the long run test, automatically switching after the wheel accelerates up to speed. Then explain how much power would be required to run the wheel for however long you need to (even sneaking in each night to reset it, which for many reasons I don't think happened). Can you fit the second mechanism inside the wheel? He did install and remove an amount of weights for the translocation test, so it might be plausible he had weights falling to spin up and power the wheel for heavy lifting, and spring power for long run and coasting at the wheel run speed.

I don't think there was a mass conspiracy. Any fraud would have to have been done with 1 or 2 people, fooling or paying off the guards (paying off IMO would be a stupid thing to do).

[daxwc]

The truth is, Bessler was most likely a fraud. During his time, many people concluded the same. Just because we haven’t figured out how he may have deceived others doesn’t mean he didn’t. However, that doesn’t mean I think anyone should give up the quest. Instead, I encourage everyone to start thinking outside the box. Cognitive dissonance: why do we lie to ourselves and how to stop.

[Fletcher]

Not upset at all Graham - everyone has these thoughts at some time, sometimes revisiting many times - the point is that to argue he was fraud or wasn't against the evidence we have, without any rational and real method of perpetrating the fraud ( work and tests etc ) and fooling everyone, is a specious argument at best - just as arguing he had a real Perpetual Motion Machine is without a plausible mechanical method to do the same .. no one can be 100% sure until either is done ..

And many a member has tried to quantify performance details and make the case for either possibility - collectively the discussion forum has filtered these details and best estimates into its subconscious to build a more accurate picture for either argument to consider - I am merely repeating the a summary of previous attempts and discussions so we don't have to revisit it over ..

Friday night and beer o'cl - have a good weekend ..

[Tarsier79]

the point is that to argue he was fraud or wasn't against the evidence we have, without any rational and real method of perpetrating the fraud ( work and tests etc ) and fooling everyone, is a specious argument at best - just as arguing he had a real Perpetual Motion Machine is without a plausible mechanical method to do the same .. no one can be 100% sure until either is done ..

Either way is fine by me.

The truth is, Bessler was most likely a fraud. During his time, many people concluded the same.

Again, in view of what we know, if he was a fraud he was very clever at it. We currently do not have a method to reproduce this particular fraud.

I absolutely agree: an environmental engine cannot supply enough power to even run a wheel that fast without any load. A yeast engine could run for weeks, and perhaps months but isn't going to get us the required power. A heat engine would require a significant amount of heat to make a large enough heat gradient for a stirling.

Magnetism in his day wasn't strong enough for him to magnetically couple the wheel to another engine hidden out of site.

I don't think there are enough weights and room in his wheel to physically perform even the lift and load tests. However, if he were fraudulent and needed to reset the weights, pulling them out and translocating the wheel half way through them would be an easy way to do it.

[Georg Künstler]

I had a look back to my old development from the year 2011.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1AA9kyQwGq/

as you can see It is performing an oscillation,
but the internal wheel is lag behind,
so we have not the required positive feedback loop.

There are many ways to achieve the positive feedback loop, I will describe one of the methods extensively in my thread.

[johannesbender]

Most theories for fraud when properly evaluated requires a higher degree of ignorance to physics , if there is/were an actual theory that could actually fit and be reproduced then it would be a different matter , but it seems to me that in practice most fraud theories would likely have to break laws to produce the same results .

One point in particular where theories break on the anvil , is duration and power and speed , some theories would try and reproduce duration but then miss the mark on useable power output , some theories would try and reproduce useable power output then miss the mark on duration , some try speed then miss the mark on power and duration , the fact is thats how ratios for force and speed work though .

Wagner is an example he stipulated his wound up machine could replicate the demonstrations of bessler but already failed in speed and duration output as called out by Fletcher , fact is Wagner knew this and went for the argument that the duration was made up for by having multiple such wound machines which would run in succession one after the other inside the wheel but even this theory misses the mark on speed too .

From AP , John.C book.

XXXIV (b) Here Wagner praises his turnspit, of which a copper-engraving has appeared, claiming that it is actually a working Mobile.

Wagner believes that my device is impossible, and won't in any way admit to anyone that it is indeed the true Mobile. He turns people away from me, and persists in the lie that the machine is exactly as described in the gutter press. In other words, the machine I have based my whole life on will never be found by anyone. Except that the thing that he has just invented, but of which to date only a copper-engraving has actually appeared, represents the type of Mobile I claim mine to be. Please, Wagner, do me a favour! Set to work, just as you claim to be in a position to, and if things succeed (to the point that your over-praised abilities allow) then put your machine (which I know will require winding) before the world, as I have done with mine. Then you can talk - till then, keep your opinions to yourself.

XXXV (b) Here Wagner brags in brash fashion.

The author of the Merseburg report made Wagner go red in the face! For the report brought the truth to the light of day, and Wagner just can't stand that. He doesn't know what to do for the best, and since his malicious ways are being successfully countered, he's still full of venom. But you make it seem as if you thought I had dismantled my machine on your account. No, no - listen patiently - the imposition of the duty was the reason for that. You're also now claiming that I must have taken it badly that you had forestalled my invention and snatched the ensuing profit away from me. Insolent liar! I smashed my machine, before you ever picked up your pen and published your lies. And you think that profit was a motive, do you? Just because you might have coined a penny or so from the turnspit contraption (if anyone did come to have a look at it) you think that I would have aimed at making a profit? No! - your "thinking" is nothing but lies. The poor took much more away from my workshop than was ever put in the poor-box.

XXXVII (b) Here Wagner apologises for the fact that his turnspit cannot revolve as fast as my wheel, but adds that it doesn't need to.

See Wagner's childish nonsense. He says that my Mobile turns too quickly. It should be different, and not go at such a fast, regular clip. No Mobile should revolve so fast! Wagner, don't take it amiss, but where, in your Bible, (or whatever other book you read instead) does it say this? Please show me the passage! Seriously, aren't you concerned that people are going to laugh at you? Just because your device doesn't run very fast, you lay into mine! If I was to make a slow-running wheel, again it wouldn't be worth much, would it? But this I dare to claim - if God allowed me a long enough life I could make my wheel go really slowly, with a gentle rhythm, and it would still be able to raise even greater weights! Then what would you say, Wagner? I could write more, but I must press on to the finish. It's no matter - I don't wish to go into the details here of how suddenly the excess weight is caused to rise. You can't comprehend these matters, or see how true craftsmanship can rise above innate lowly tendencies (as does a weight above the point of application of a lever).

[daxwc]

JB: Most theories for fraud when properly evaluated requires a higher degree of ignorance to physics

Unfortunately I believe that is untrue, look at John Worrell Keely It wasn’t till he was dead then they discovered maybe it was fraud. The more science and physics aptitude they have the harder the fraud is to recognise.

[johannesbender]

On this particular case about Bessler's wheel i would argue against that , it has been over 300 years and not a single person - also in particular the science community that believe he perpetrated a deliberate fraud , is/was able to bring more to the table than "it must be fraud" .

Because no device inside a wheel they can come up with - would/will perform to the restrictions the demonstrated wheel's (back in 17century ) shown , output speed and power and duration and size , the laws as they stand for non human intervention , does not allow all 3 things to be valid , the laws are such that you sacrifice one to increase the other (you cant have them all at once) , this is the reason Wagner could not even create something that conforms to the observed facts .

I myself am not one that just looks at this as if it was PM as stipulated , i try to use and apply the laws which i believe in , to try and find some answer for myself , but i have not seen anything demonstrable/demonstrated from anyone who tries to explain it (fraud or not) that fits , yet .

[Roxaway59]

First let me make where I stand on this perfectly clear so there is no misunderstanding.

I believe that a person is innocent until proven guilty and there is no proof that Bessler was a liar and a fraudster.

This topic is asking the question was Johann Bessler a fraudster? Thereby opening a debate on this issue.

I think I have ruffled a few feathers by doing this but that was not my intention. My intention was to move closer to the truth.

Some of the conclusions that I am personally moving closer to have come a lot quicker than I anticipated partly due to the very quick and highly motivated responses by some of you.

I was intent on doing more simulations and such but feel that this is now unnecessary.

If fraud was committed I would like to propose three of the most likely ways this was done.

I’m going to start with what I think is the strongest first.

FIRST SCENARIO

In this scenario Bessler has been working for years genuinely trying to make a gravity wheel without any success. He has become very skilled in mechanics and mathematics.

He wakes up one morning and realises that he is never going to realise his dream and begins devising a way to dupe the people for money in a similar way to that of Charles Redheffer years later.

He knew he could keep his wheel covered and knew that he could use the excuse that he was protecting his investment in time and money until such a time as he could sell his invention.

He puts a high price on his invention because he knows he can never sell it and devises obstacles to put in the way of potential buyers.

He decides to use his religious beliefs to help bolster his claims of being honest to make him appear more believable.

He doesn’t really know where all this is leading but sets up his first wheel complete with hidden cord attached to a hand crank in the bedroom above.

This is operated by various people including the maid who later gave an accurate account to the authorities.

Bessler then spreads the word that he has made this astonishing wheel and plays on the public's ignorance of science at that time allowing them to view the wheel for a fee.

For the first time after all his labours he is now finally making money and he can do this indefinitely as long as the wheel is not sold.

At the same time he realises that along with the money obtained by people viewing the wheel he can also earn money by writing books and as long as the mechanism remains hidden the books can sell way into the future.

Everything is going nicely and the money he is making is a gravy train he does not want to lose.

Then, as with Charles Redheffer his wheel attracts the attention of people that are more mechanically knowledgable than the average person and that’s when his gravy train became threatened.

Because of the negative publicity and probable lack of people paying to see the wheel Bessler relocates to pastures new to keep the gravy train going.

At this point he begins to re engineer his wheel in preparation for outwitting his detractors claims and to make demonstrations that will get him more funds coming in.

During this time Bessler writes that these later wheels are based on a different design to the first.

This would be a partial truth as the later wheels possess their own hidden energy source in the form of a large coiled spring.

The coiled spring allows the wheel to move on its own but it is used along side the hand crank.

The other addition to the wheels are eight equally spaced compartments near the rim of the wheel each containing a weight.

As the weight moves past the top of the wheel it rolls slightly making a knocking noise.

This is to instil the notion in people that this is a real machine that is powered by the movement of weights.

A large diameter coiled spring when tensioned has a fair amount of power and does have the ability to lift weights as Bessler demonstrated but these early tests still took advantage of the hand crank.

When Bessler was repeatabley accused of driving his wheel with a hand crank he knew he would have to demonstrate that the wheel could work perfectly well on its own.

Then Bessler had the offer from Karl so it became make or break time.

He demonstrated to Karl a wheel with the most believable mechanism he could muster that contained a compartment next to the axle that hid a large coiled spring.

With the wheel in motion Karl had no way of working out that it wasn’t actually over unity and he fell for the scam giving Bessler his best pay out so far.

The last wheel Bessler made was twelve feet in diameter and he stated that the bigger the wheel the more power it had and that was true but only because you can fit larger coiled springs in them.

The twelve foot wheel had multiple large diameter coiled springs in it giving it a fair amount of energy. During the tests it may have been necessary to use some form of hidden hand crank that was skilfully devised so as not to be detected but maybe not.

When the wheel was sealed in the room Bessler could have arranged for the wheel to pause for a certain amount of time before starting again.

He was a watch maker and I don’t think it was beyond his capability to arrange that.

He may also have arranged for some kind of link wire to be pulled so the wheel could be stopped and restarted.

That’s a long post so I will leave it there.

Graham
Playing devils advocate.

[johannesbender]

Rest assured no feathers where roughed around here , this is the norm , and we are not afraid to look at the possibilities https://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8464 :)