Overbalanced wheels, a waste of time ?

[pstroud]

Guys,

I agree that our problem is not a closed loop perpetual motion system but a gravity wheel. Ralph / Johh, I agree with you that gravity is energy, making this a system that is dependent on an outside force....

I think that the secret to one of our mysterys of lifting 4 lbs using 1 lb may all lay in the proper usage of springs. I've been doing a lot of reading lately on levers, springs and shifting mechanisms. I'm studying a more complex usage of springs, which can be used to offset 4 lbs to move as if it were one with the shifting leverage of 1 lb.... Yes, most of us know that the point where the spring is attached can be where the entire weight is leverages. But what if its not attached to the wheel at all????? Now we have some extra power....

Still working on my education.

Preston.

[bluesgtr44]

I have been sticking within my own thread on this...just can't anymore...I totally disagree, Preston.

I agree that our problem is not a closed loop perpetual motion system but a gravity wheel. Ralph / Johh, I agree with you that gravity is energy, making this a system that is dependent on an outside force...

I think gravity is a constant that can be used to it's own maximum potential. It will not create energy...It is only a part of the equation...and it is simple. Without the components of the mechanism, gravity it still there. Nothing happens until this particular mechanism is put together and arranged insuch a way, that it will us the constant force of gravity to forever try to find its punctum quietus. Gravity is not the reason it was able to lift a load...gravity is the reason it was allowed, through a mechanical arrangement, to perpetuate a motion that would be limited in some form by the constant force of gravity and the mechanical arrangement.


Steve

[Michael]

Your absolutely right Steve. Any machine that can be made to run on gravity can be made to use a gradient pressure a spring as an example, as a substitute. It's perpetual motion no matter how you look at it.

[Wheeler]

Michael
I beg your pardon!
You must be assuming that gravity is not a flow of energy.

A spring holds only the amount of energy that has been applied to it.
It can not continue.

[bluesgtr44]

Wheeler...

A spring holds only the amount of energy that has been applied to it.
It can not continue.

Yes, when used in that way...a think maybe a spring can also be a diversion. I think Michael thinks so too.

Let's get back to your water wheel example...we know the wheel will turn only as fast as the water flow will allow it. Once it reaches a point, the wheel turns faster than the water flows and this restricts it...it actually would do damage to a wheel.

This is what I am saying about gravity and it being a constant. Just like that stream flowing on the water wheel...the faster you want it to turn, the more downstream you put your wheel. Correct?


Steve

[rlortie]

[I think gravity is a constant that can be used to it's own maximum potential.]

Ok! so we know we have a potential, as such then there is gradient.

[It will not create energy...It is only a part of the equation...]

It may not create energy, but it will do work which in turn can be used to create energy

[Without the components of the mechanism, gravity it still there.]

With or without any components gravity is still there and allows us to pour a cup of coffee from the pot to a cup.

[Nothing happens until this particular mechanism is put together and arranged in such a way, that it will us the constant force of gravity to forever try to find its punctum quietus.]

Which is to say that it is doing "work" and as long as it can not come to rest will continue doing so.

[Gravity is not the reason it was able to lift a load]

Gravity will lift a load of smaller mass or by leverage, if not gravity then what is the force that causes a 2 pound weight to lift one pound the same distance?Or one pound to lift two with adequate leverage or pulleys

[gravity is the reason it was allowed, through a mechanical arrangement, to perpetuate a motion that would be limited in some form by the constant force of gravity and the mechanical arrangement.]

So you agree that gravity is the reason, but you just said that it was not! I am confused as to what you are saying here, in the mean time gravity keeps the water flowing through the turbine doing "work" and producing energy.

Ralph

[bluesgtr44]

Ralph, as always very good...now, follow it through mechanically,

So you agree that gravity is the reason, but you just said that it was not! I am confused as to what you are saying here, in the mean time gravity keeps the water flowing through the turbine doing "work" and producing energy.

You are dead on! Now, look at the same stream...we can choose, mechanically...where to put our mill. If we put on further upstream, gravity has had little time to work at 32 ft./sec^. But, you put a mill up about a mile downstream, i bet that little saw mill, or whatever, would have considerable more velocity potential.

Now, in this case you have 10-12 ft. It never changes...that's all you have....10-12 ft. OK, now put your mill about 12 ft. down stream and see what kind of potential you get...gravity never changed....


Steve

[Wheeler]

Gravity
Gravity is present always. It is a flow.
If we use a tree standing, it will give a picture of how gravity can be used right before our eyes.
The tree is held to the earths surface while standing with roots that are also spread outward.
Remove the roots and you can begin to see gravity acting on the log as it begins to fall from the force of gravity.

You are actually seeing the result of a force.

You can connect a device to the tree or log in a special arrangement and get work from the acting gravity on a falling tree.
This will prove that a machine must have special arrangement to use gravity.

[Wheeler]

.gravity never changed....

but the volume did change.
You moved to where more water was.

[bluesgtr44]

Wheeler,

but the volume did change.
You moved to where more water was.

OK, so move...ya got 10-12 ft,....10-12 ft....that's it. How much more are you going to get...


Steve

[Wheeler]

true

10 to 12 ft.
Lets say 1 lb. more volume.

However stay in the same location, and make the bucket larger.

[Michael]

Michael
I beg your pardon!
You must be assuming that gravity is not a flow of energy.

A spring holds only the amount of energy that has been applied to it.
It can not continue.

Wheeler whether gravity is a flow or not is irrelevant. I should mention that gravity being a flow does not jive with modern physics and these guys have done a lot of work - still that is also irrelevant because in both models the behavior is the same. A weight raised in a gravity field is no different than storing potential in a spring. In the flow model you still have to go against the stream to reset. Conservation of energy. In the spring model you also have to reset as well. Any model that uses gravity can use any kind of gradient, including a spring as a substitute. There would only be a difference if we were talking of a legitimate turning off of gravity.

Wheeler if you are interested in what my own view of gravity is, no I don't believe it's a flow. I don't fully agree with relativity's view either. It's tricky because I agree with it in a way. I think gravity is a form of entropy. I think there is a dynamic happening with the universe and the last stage or final entropic balance is gravity. We need entropy wheeler or else we couldn't tell what was what.

[james kelly]

I would like for you fellows to really think about what you , ALL of you, are saying. Increasing the bucket size will increase torque,and slow down wheel speed. For every change that is made there is a result. It depends on what you want to aceive. jim kelly

[rlortie]

One pound in this case is not volume but pressure. moving down stream does not add more water unless more water is added to the system. It adds pressure minus friction loss which both effect velocity.

Turbine speed is related to rate of flow and pressure or "Head".. maximum turbine speed is governed by head and flow to a point, after that point is reached then cavitation forms around the turbine blades and will eat it up! To produce 3 phase 60 cycle power the turbine connected to a commercial generator of megawatt capacity is usually set at 87 rpm.

IMO gravity is not a flowing force of energy, it is a conservative force, that applies upon a mass that when falling creates a force of energy

Ralph

[rlortie]

Jim Kelly is correct, increasing the size of bucket adds more torque but it also means taking longer to fill the bucket. High speed low torque= small bucket. Same holds true with turbine blades, the bigger the blade the longer it takes to turn it.

Ralph