What in your opinion is a crossbar?

[Mak#1]

Hi All; I would like to get your opinion(s) as to what exactly you think Bessler was talking about , when he made the statement "if I have a single crossbar in my machine it barely turns itself at all" I dont think I have the exact wording but I think you get my point. I know John Collins in his book PMAAMS says he thinks its part of the wheel structure itself, Another member thinks its a long lever that goes from one side of the wheel to the other. I myself think its a cross like a + plus sign that fills the wheel from rim to rim. Im just trying to get an Idea how far we are divided on just this one subject, so please feel free to put in your two cents!!?? Thanks in advance MAK

[jim_mich]

Stewart's posted this about 10 months ago:

Denn wenn ich mache hier bereits
In ein Werck gleichsam nur ein Creutz/
So wird man es gantz langsam sehen
Kaum von sich selber herum drehen;
Hingegen/ wenn ich zugericht't
Viel Creutze/ Züge und Gewicht_/
So kan das Werck viel schneller lauffen/

Because if I make here already
in a work so to speak only one cross,
So will one see it quite slow
Barely turn itself around;
However, if I prepared
Many crosses, pulls and weights,
So the work can move much faster,

Stewart followes this with some excellent comments.

From this it is my understanding and belief that what some translate at "crossbar" is a "cross linkage" or interconnection between weights on the wheel. With only one "cross linkage" you end up with just two (or possibly four) weights interconnected. These will barely turn a wheel. Bessler mentions that "now" he uses "two and two" things, thus implying four weights interconnected. When many cross connections, pull cords and weights are used then the wheel turns much faster (and faster means more power).

From all this I make an assumption that each "drive-unit" in the wheel has a cross linkage connection from two weights on one edge of the wheel across to two weights on the opposite edge. And when a number of these "drive-units" are placed on a wheel it rotates much faster.

[greendoor]

I suspect the crossbar is the balancing beam - essential to the Milkovic two stage mechanical oscillator. I suspect this is used to convert the swinging pendulum into alternating overbalanced/underbalanced torque from leverage. And more of those would be one way to increased power.

[Fletcher]

Mak .. an old [but young] & brilliant member called Jonathan actually translated creutz to mean crucifix i.e. like the + you talk about - & that is my feeling as well.

Since Bessler was a christian then I can accept that some religious symbolism might have crept in from time to time, though he may not have literally meant cross or cross-bar or crucifix so Jim's interpretation is just as valid.

[John Collins]

While I acknowledge Stewart's magnificent research efforts in arriving at a correct translation I sometimes think we can't see the wood for the trees. Creutz and Creutze in my very fat German/English dictionary are explained as being similar to Kreutz and Kreutze and they include the word cross-bar among too many others of varying relevance to the mechanism. (The letter C was hardly used in German being substituted by K and this might indicate a foreign origin in his case).

I consider a cross-bar as something which crosses from one side of the wheel to the other and is used to hang something on. Further on he says something like 'However, if I made many cross-bars, pulls and weights,
So the work can move much faster.'

Now, although I am unable to make the precise connection in any dictionary that I can find, I translate Züge as meaning pulley, a wheel with a grooved rim in which a belt, chain, or piece of rope runs in order to lift weights by a downward pull. Züge derives from zug - to pull) I'm sure I will be corrected in this assumption, but my friend Mike Senior who did 99% of my translation work told me that pulley is a correct translation of the word Züge and as he has a degree in 18th C German I believe him. I specifically asked him about this word and I reckon it's right and it fits in with the rest of the text.

So in my opinion Bessler is describing cross-bars, pulleys and weights.

JC

[barksalot]

In MT 21 he talks about cross-poles, if one extends the poles to the rim then one could say they were cross-bars.

IMO this is what he is saying, although any further augmentation can not be ruled out.



Wow 3 edits to correct spelling errors. I really should let the coffee kick-in before posting.

[Fletcher]

Good observation barksalot - it would be interesting to see what the German words were he used in the passage next to mt21 - unfortunately I can't make them out - if it were also creutz etc then that would be a big + ... ;)

[Stewart]

Creutz and Creutze in my very fat German/English dictionary are explained as being similar to Kreutz and Kreutze and they include the word cross-bar among too many others of varying relevance to the mechanism. (The letter C was hardly used in German being substituted by K and this might indicate a foreign origin in his case).

Creutz/Creutze and Kreutz/Kreutze are in fact identical words. The letter 'c' was used extensively in old German but the spellings of most words with a 'c' were changed to use a 'k' at some point. So it's quite safe for you to look up Kreutz for Creutz. The 'e' is added to the end to make it plural. In modern German the 'tz' is often now just a 'z' - so the modern word to look up would be 'Kreuz'. I've looked up this word in many German-English dictionaries old and new, book and internet and not one lists 'crossbar' as a translation, so I'd be interested to see the translation in your book - could you take a photo of that bit and post it here please? It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just interested in seeing what your dictionary has. The word for 'crossbar' is 'Kreuzstange', and so it's quite possible that 'crossbar' might sometimes be abbreviated to 'cross'/'Kreuz', and in fact I even agree with you that the word 'Kreuz' in the passage in question probably refers to a bar that passes through the centre of the wheel i.e. a crossbar (as I've said the last time I discussed this on the forum). However, it's not safe as a translator to put 'crossbar' as a translation for 'Kreuz' - it's not possible to be that specific from the word 'Kreuz' (which means 'cross') without further explanation and cross-referencing (no pun intended!) with other text that proves the use in this manner.

Now, although I am unable to make the precise connection in any dictionary that I can find, I translate Züge as meaning pulley, a wheel with a grooved rim in which a belt, chain, or piece of rope runs in order to lift weights by a downward pull. Züge derives from zug - to pull) I'm sure I will be corrected in this assumption, but my friend Mike Senior who did 99% of my translation work told me that pulley is a correct translation of the word Züge and as he has a degree in 18th C German I believe him.

The reason you're struggling to make a direct connection between 'Zug' as meaning 'pulley' is because I think again it would be an abbreviated/slang term. 'Zug' is a noun meaning 'pull' - i.e. "I gave the rope a pull". 'Züge' is the plural form (pulls) - i.e. "I gave the rope several pulls". The verb 'to pull', from which 'Zug' is presumably derived, is 'ziehen'. There are other meanings for 'Zug' such as 'line','lineament','train'. In Bessler's time a 'pulley' (a device with a wheel as you've described) was referred to as a 'Scheiben-zug' or 'Flaschen-zug'. 'Scheibe' means 'disc' and obviously refers to the roller/pulley wheel. The word 'Scheibe' on it's own has come to mean 'pulley'. I'm not sure of the exact connection of the word 'Flasche', but it might refer to the casing/housing i.e. the 'block' of 'block & tackle'. 'Flaschenzug' is still a term used in German today to refer to a pulley/block & tackle.

So while it is possible to see a connection between 'Zug' and 'pulley', once again for a translator to just put 'pulley' is not safe in my opinion because that will automatically conjure up in peoples' minds a small grooved wheel, when it could simply be referring to the 'rope'. It's difficult to know what to put down for a translation in this case - I can't put 'rope' because it doesn't say that even if that is probably what it refers to, so I thought the safest thing to do is to put the noun 'pull' and then just explain what it could mean (i.e. something used to pull). You'll see my reasoning for not assuming 'pulley' in a minute.

So, the important thing to do when translating Bessler texts is to cross-reference things - not only among his own works but also those of others from his time such as Leupold. Taking the part of AP that is being discussed and comparing the words used to those in MT really helps our understanding. Looking at words from MT14 & 15 for example:

MT14: "inwendigen Creütz-Züge mit den Gewichten" (internal cross-pulls with weights)

'Creütz-Züge' = cross-pulls

This refers to the internal rope with the triangular weights attached (although the section of the 'pull' between the two triangular weights is probably a rod). There are no visible pulley wheels here, and 'Züge' quite clearly does not refer to such here.

MT15: "die Züge etwas langer sind und an den äußen Enden noch besondere Gewichte haben." (the pulls are somewhat longer and have further special weights at the outer ends.)

'Züge' (pulls) - here again it quite clearly refers to the 'cross-pulls' from the previous design, however now the cross-pulls are definitely rods and we can see separately drawn ropes that the pivoting weight-arms use to pull them. Here we see how the 'Creutz' (cross) from AP could be an abbreviation of 'Creutz-Zug' and we therefore have the link which suggests we could refer to them as 'crossbars'. Further research on the word 'Creutz-Zug' might give us more meanings - so far I've not managed to find anything specific for that word combination other than it meaning 'crusade' (modern form would be 'Kreuzzug').

In all the MT figures that actually show what could be classed as a pulley wheel, Bessler always refers to them as 'wheels' or small 'wheels'. e.g. from MT22: "bey C. sind Rädgen" (at C. are small wheels); from MT47: "bey G. G. über Rädgen" (at G.G. over small wheels). Not once does he label a pulley wheel as 'Zug'.

So in my opinion when Bessler says in AP: "Viel Creutze/ Züge und Gewichte/", the 'Creutze' refers to 'cross-pulls' or 'crossbars', the 'Züge' refers to 'pulls' or 'ropes' etc., and 'Gewichte' means 'weights'. (So as you can see John I'm pretty much agreeing with your own interpretation of this, and always have).

Essentially all Bessler is describing here in my opinion is the overbalancing system, and telling us that the more overbalancing weight-systems that you add the faster and more powerful the wheel is. He seems to be describing the overbalance weight-units of something like MT14 & 15 - MT14 having 6, and MT15 having 8.

Anyway, the upshot of it all is it tells us how to speed up or slow down the wheel by changing the number of overbalancing weight units, which is fairly obvious (although obviously not to Wagner), but ultimately it's not much of a clue as we still need to know how to perpetually shift the overbalancing weights.

Stewart

[Stewart]

In MT 21 he talks about cross-poles,

The word used there is 'Creütz-Leisten'. Once again 'Creütz' means 'cross', and 'Leisten' means 'ledges', 'fillets', 'borders', it can also mean 'clasps' and various terms such as 'slats','battens' and 'bars'. The singular is 'Leiste'. The difference between these and the 'Creütz-Züge' ('cross-pulls') is that these are fixed and the 'pulls' slide. Also these are more like shelves or ledges that the weights lay on rather than rods/bars.

Stewart

[axel]

"Anyway, the upshot of it all is it tells us how to speed up or slow down the wheel by changing the number of overbalancing weight units, which is fairly obvious (although obviously not to Wagner), but ultimately it's not much of a clue as we still need to know how to perpetually shift the overbalancing weights.

Stewart"


The wheel is not overbalanced. It runs on impulse. For overbalance to occur, more weight would have to be litted than raised, and that's impossible.


Axel

[John Collins]

It started spontaneously Axel, so it must have been overbalanced.

JC

[John Collins]

'...so I'd be interested to see the translation in your book - could you take a photo of that bit and post it here please? It's not that I don't believe you, I'm just interested in seeing what your dictionary has.'

I'll scan it later today Stewart and post it here. Thanks for clarifying the translations.

JC

[Stewart]

The wheel is not overbalanced. It runs on impulse. For overbalance to occur, more weight would have to be litted than raised, and that's impossible.

As John says it was self starting so must always be out of balance. Bessler himself tells us that the wheel is an overbalanced one, and on more than one occasion. The overbalancing weights drive the wheel, but the trick is how to continuously maintain that overbalance using other mechanisms/magic. So, if you believe the answer is impulse, then you'll need to use your impulse design to shift overbalancing weights if you want to replicate Bessler's demonstration wheels.

I'll scan it later today Stewart and post it here. Thanks for clarifying the translations.

Thanks John.

Stewart

[John Collins]

Stewart I've got two large German dictionaries and both include "cross-bar" as a translation for "Kreuz" - see attached scan from one of them.

JC

[Mak#1]

Hi John; I remember reading your book about your Idea of how you thought the wheel was constructed, I believe you said that a crossbar was part of the wheel framing as in the depth rather than the width is this correct?