A blueprint of Bessler's wheel question

[ovyyus]

Didn't Bessler say that if it wasn't true PM then they could have his head?

Jim, the means to measure and determine such a thermal source was still at least a century away. You keep harping on about Bessler being either truthful or a liar, like it can only be one or the other. It's a false dilemma. IMO, Bessler acted in good faith and to the best of his ability and knowledge at the time.

[KAS]

Here's an abstract thought; Perhaps that illusive energy source could be Einstein's old baby; time itself.

That is, time and kinetic energy. Consider this:

If you have 2 buckets of water about to be tipped 10 feet from the ground.
If one bucket full of water was allowed to fall unhindered whilst the other poured into a pocket on a water wheel, the unhindered wet mass would hit the floor first whilst the other's kinetic energy (influenced by gravity) was being utilised by the wheel for a period of time.

Kinetic energy and time is inextricably linked.

For kinetic energy to be used only time is needed. Nothing else is removed from the water. The same mass will leave the pocket as when it entered.

Now, this may be where Bessler managed to fool gravity, by manipulating kinetic energy for a time. Perhaps he found a way to lift a weight to a higher point by shielding kinetic energy from the effects of gravity for a specific time period in the rotation; CF maybe?.

I may be rambling but it's something to think about.

Kas

[daxwc]

Thereby, I hope, they will come
to appreciate fully the importance and rightness of my work,
especially as the effect it produces, now known to a wide public
and more than amply described in this document, has never
been matched by any other known mechanical device. (Not, of
course, that my device invalidates known principles, or renders
all existing types of machine obsolete). Pg 223 DT



From JC’s DT http://www.free-energy.co.uk/

Wonder if this is translated properly? Bessler is always claiming he discovered a great hidden secret, but here he says it breaks no laws. You would have thought if it was static electricity or electricity that he would announce that it was some thing new, instead it sounds like an application of something old.

[ovyyus]

Daxwc, Karl's comments seem to support the notion that Bessler's wheel broke no physical laws. Bessler seems to agree by stating that the mathematicians are correct, but that so is he.

If Bessler's secret was some new and revolutionary gravity or inertia powered device then a few physical laws would definitely need to be rewritten. IMO, Bessler did discover a great hidden secret in Nature, even if it isn't the gravity/inertia revolution some believe it to be.

[Michael]

Continuing from my post to Fletcher.
This section is copied from John's Translation of DT.

Starting on page 252 of my copy Bessler supplies a letter from;

Valentinus Bögehold
L.S. Professor of History &
Rhetoric in the illustrious
Cassel, 26th October 1719
Caroline College.

In the last century, some distinguished men were known to have
promised to reveal the phenomenon of Perpetual Motion. J. J.
Becherus, Doctor and professor of Mechanical Matters, on page
157 of his book mentions three types of Perpetual Motion:-
(page 146)
1) Motion for as long as the material lasts.
2) Motion produced by purely artificial means.
3) Motion produced by physical or mechanical
means.
Of these types, he claims that he himself invented the lastnamed,
using the effect of water continually beating against the
machine. He denies, claiming “true reason�, that there is any
253
other form of PERPETUAL MOTION of matter, e.g. such as that
which Casparus the Scott, famed amongst Jesuits as a
mathematician, holds that the Polish Jesuit P. Solski devised the
principle of. But, says Becherus, when his (Solski’s) fellowcountryman,
P Kochanski, wished to imitate the procedure, he
(P.K.) only succeeded in demonstrating how such paralogism
lay behind that invention.

But truly, long before Becharus,

PERPETUAL MOTION
was invented by the most ingenious Cornelius Drebbelius, who
in the year of our Lord (or year of the World’s Redemption)
MDCXX (1620) wrote of his invention in a letter to JAMES VI,
(i.e. James II) of Great Britain. This letter was published by
Joachim Morsus. In brief it states: -
“I am able�, (he says) “to construct a Globe, which perpetually
rotates, once every 24 hours like the heavens, or as many times
faster as I shall have decided. It is such that in a thousand
years it will not once fail, but continue to present to us the years,
months, days and hours, the courses of the Sun, the Moon, of
all the Planets and the Stars whose motion is known to Man. All
this is, as it were, made possible by utilising the known
harmonic properties of steel, flowing water and fire. This
knowledge is good for all time, and cost is the only constraint on
the achieving of greater force. Further, in order that I might
confirm more strongly that I do indeed know the cause of the
motions of things both up and down, what carries earth and
water upwards into the air, I suspend, in a closed vessel,
EARTH in the middle of water, WATER in the middle of air, and
in the middle of fire, to demonstrate how it is that one element
may surround another, just as we see that in the case of the
terrestrial globe it is surrounded by both water and air. And so
in this way I can make high low, (page 147) low high, light heavy
and heavy light. Further, I can force standing WATER upwards
to an altitude of 10, 20 or more feet. And because I have
discovered the cause of the WIND, I can construct machines
that blow violently.

And so, firstly, I shall relate the cause of FIRE,
and then the nature and operation of it; secondly, the properties
of other ELEMENTS; and, thirdly, the nature of COLD,

finally,
the causes of the ebb and flow of the Tides, Thunder, Lightning,
Rainstorms, Winds, and the reasons why all these things grow
and multiply

.

Why is the letter in there?

[Michael]

Dr what; "inside summer lightning flashes," I think that's the quote that supported our thinking of static electricity at the time if my memory serves correctly.

[DrWhat]

http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/specials ... rebbel.htm

[daxwc]

Would Bessel flirt with the letter mentioning Drebbel or Becherus if the secrect was close and he was not made to publish it. Anybody ever figure out how Becherus perpetual mobile was susposed to run, that spiral probably contracted with temperature.

[nicbordeaux]

Static... isn't that exceedingly high voltage ? And as afaik Bessler wouldn't have had electric engines, so we're looking at electromags ? Feeding static into lodestones ? Anyhow, way out of my depth.

Felt however... Very much used in pianos. The hammer pivots on an axle in a felt bushing. The dampers are felt. The keyboard has felt washers. The keys pivot over pins which fit into slots in the actual key wood, and which are lined with felt.

In an organ you don't have dampers, but maybe there is use of felt in the keyboard, not sure, haven't been into organs. However, a sketchy remembrance of things heard is that air flow might be controlled in some cases by felt (definitely leather in some configs), and there is a thing called a diaphone in which a felt covered hammer thrashes around and causes diff in air pressure, there again not sure of timeline.

So this would be one for an real organ tuner. Anybody out there with that knowledge ?

[Michael]

Good link Damian, thanks,
Why has it been said there was no patent system for Bessler but Drebbel received patents as early as the late 1500's?

[Fletcher]

Fletcher quote:

So, to me it reads that Bessler believed there was an agent - it's original source being the question ?!

I agree, like I stated before, in my opinion Bessler was deceived by the science of his day.


And in truth it now seems to me that the time is long overdue, now that I have achieved my goal, once known only to God, that I and the world should see this principle, in itself so simple, and yet at the same time so deeply hidden, of everlasting motion, described in total detail and in mathematical simplicity, in praise of God’s boundless wisdom, and for the benefit of the entire world. pg 211 DT

Now start putting it all together.

N.B. Thanks Michael - Cornelius Drebbel wasn't' far form my mind - I had forgotten about the Becherus portion of the letter.

Drebbel exhibited a thermal engine working on solar heating of a spherical flask which caused an air pressure increase inside the flask - this shifted a column of liquid laid around the circumference of the circular flask causing it to tip & rotate from imbalance - as the pressure changed during the day the column of water advanced & retreated & so the torque changed & so rotation of the flask was preserved [constant motion, albeit very slow] - it was accepted as true PM, though clearly an external agent was involved, that being solar energy [thermal] - Drebbel was circa 1620, about 100 years before Bessler & Becherus before that, so the precedent was established - that's why I say that Bessler was silent about defining PM - clearly a solar powered engine uses an external agent therefore falls outside of the definition of true PM - but, there's more.

dax .. in the above quote Bessler says that his principle of ever lasting motion was very simple but also deeply hidden - most importantly he says that it was previously only known to God - this rules out Drebbel & Becherus devices because they were already published & known about, therefore not only known about by God - And since Bessler includes their descriptions in DT then he could not make the above claim in good conscience nor accuracy - so his principle of ever lasting motion, whilst it may have ultimately been thermal in origin, was not a direct copy or analogue of Drebbel etc who also made clocks based on this principle.

I agree, like I stated before, in my opinion Besser was decieved by the science of his day.

In reference to above it is my opinion that Bessler couldn't accurately explain mathematically the cause of his 'ever lasting motion' other than in general terms [this does elude to what Bill said about thermal not being able to be explained fully for another 100 years] - And, he could do that from experimental observation to prove the point, causation & effect - I don't think he was deceived by the science of the day, just that the tools didn't exist to adequately explain what he had found thru experimentation - that is only my subjective opinion.

Why is the letter [Becherus & Drebbel] in there?

The letter was included by Bessler in the DT section headed "To Those Who Do Not Believe" - this section in the main includes testimonials to Bessler & his wheels - suddenly the Becherus & Drebbel tract is included - this is to show that HE believed Drebbel's device to be true PM, even though there was an external agent involved - he put it in there to 'pave the way' for his device, also borne from nature, but in his opinion internally motivated from motion, rather than direct thermal stimulation.

Later, after his wheel was revealed he could point to the Drebbel letter in DT & say that that was a legitimate true PM & there was no serious objection to calling it so at the time, therefore his wheel must also be accepted in the same light as true PM.

Fletcher wrote:

...what he doesn't rule out is thermal - he explicitly talks about wind, water & wound up springs to give potential to the system received from an external source - he does not mention thermal input - this may be a oversight or just wasn't on his radar at the time.

I agree. What if the action of Bessler's mechanism caused an airflow to separate into hot and cold, which was then harnessed to do work by lifting weights? Heat was still largely a mystery in Bessler's time, even if it was known how to expand wagon wheel rims in a fire.

Is it conceivable that Bessler noticed some small and unseen thermal effect while studying and building organs, which he then developed to some practical degree? In this scenario the action of his wheel would have appeared exactly like it was wholly internal and the energy source would have been a mystery.

Bessler would surely have known that after his secret was revealed it would be scrutinized and studied extensively, and that perhaps it's true energy source would eventually be defined. What if it was eventually determined that it wasn't a 'true PM' afterall? Of course, his honour would be intact because it would be seen that he acted in good faith but, perhaps most importantly, by then his money would be well secured.

Also, back on the subject, I think it is interesting that Bessler finally had his eureka moment after working as a pipe organ apprentice. After all, man struggled for thousands of years to understand how heavier than air flight was possible. Perhaps there are still a few mysteries of aerodynamics left to be learned.

Please see http://www.besslerwheel.com/airy/index.html

-Scott

Agreed Bill - as Scott said on a recent thread, he found it after working as an organ maker, read Scotts links to George Airy & Wilks - the study of the human voice box & attenuation of angled plates in an air flow re the mathematical possibility of PM i.e. the Center of pressure changes direction on angled plates making them stable & unstable at certain angles - Airy believed that the math showed an increase in amplitude [like a pendulum] or in other words, a self accelerating system, IINM - in order for there to be an energy gain [self acceleration] then the source was most probably thermal energy drawn from the ambient air - this would be an aerodynamic effect possibly reducing to thermal cause ?!

Please see http://www.besslerwheel.com/airy/index.html

Jim_Mich wrote:

Didn't Bessler say that if it wasn't true PM then they could have his head?

Jim, the means to measure and determine such a thermal source was still at least a century away. You keep harping on about Bessler being either truthful or a liar, like it can only be one or the other. It's a false dilemma. IMO, Bessler acted in good faith and to the best of his ability and knowledge at the time.

Thereby, I hope, they will come
to appreciate fully the importance and rightness of my work,
especially as the effect it produces, now known to a wide public
and more than amply described in this document, has never been matched by any other known mechanical device. (Not, of course, that my device invalidates known principles, or renders
all existing types of machine obsolete). Pg 223 DT



From JC’s DT http://www.free-energy.co.uk/

Wonder if this is translated properly? Bessler is always claiming he discovered a great hidden secret, but here he says it breaks no laws. You would have thought if it was static electricity or electricity that he would announce that it was some thing new, instead it sounds like an application of something old.

Bessler says, not matched by any other known device [see above Drebbel & Becherus comments] - And, as you point out, does not invalidate known principles.

Daxwc, Karl's comments seem to support the notion that Bessler's wheel broke no physical laws. Bessler seems to agree by stating that the mathematicians are correct, but that so is he.

If Bessler's secret was some new and revolutionary gravity or inertia powered device then a few physical laws would definitely need to be rewritten. IMO, Bessler did discover a great hidden secret in Nature, even if it isn't the gravity/inertia revolution some believe it to be.

I agree Bill.

Would Bessel flirt with the letter mentioning Drebbel or Becherus if the secrect was close and he was not made to publish it.

Anybody ever figure out how Becherus perpetual mobile was susposed to run, that spiral probably contracted with temperature.

See above - yes he would, if the principle of 'ever lasting motion' was based on something found in nature, but not obviously thermal in origin [but could be on close inspection] but that Bessler couldn't mathematically explain, but others might, later.

[jim_mich]

See Wikipedia "history of patent law".
Early 'letters patent' were usually issued by the local monarch and required one to disclose the invention. They allowed one exclusive rights to make and use the invention for a period of years. Bessler wanted absolute assurance of a profit. What if the Monarch turned down the request for letters patent and then the knowledge of PM became well known?

Bessler did not seem to be interested in building and selling perpetual motion wheels. He was like many inventors today that think they only need to invent something then sell it to some large corporation for an outrageous price. Most successful inventors start out by building and selling their own invented product.

I wonder why Bessler didn't just make and sell PM wheels? I think the answer is that they were so simple that any "carpenter's boy" could build them. The price would have soon been just the cost of the labor and materials to build them.

[daxwc]

Hmmm...


After Drebbel’s letter which is inside Valentinus letter, he says this about Drebbel:

Hence I shall give a warning to all lovers of this art, and
demonstrate to them a better way.
As far as Drebelius is concerned, it seems to me that we cannot
be sure quite what he had in mind; whether he wished to keep
some things from becoming common knowledge, or even
conceal some of them from the KING himself. And, despite
much searching among the writings of industrious scholars, I do
not know whether in truth he really discovered and perfected the
art of PERPETUAL MOTION; this must remain uncertain to us.
Nevertheless, His High Eminence Cardinal Perronius, once
listed, amongst the store of lost inventions, these six which, he
said, clever men might wish to investigate; viz: -
1) The Squaring of the Circle, 2) The Doubling of the Cube,
3) The Preparation of the Philosopher’s Stone, 4)
Divination through Astrology, 5) Magic and 6) Perpetual
Motion. PG 256 DT Valentinus Bögehold

When I read this Fletcher is he not actually telling Bessler not to ride the grey area and be clear where perpetual motion is coming from?

After the above quote, Valentinus goes on for pages on The Squaring of the Circle... why?


From Jc’s DT http://www.free-energy.co.uk/


thks

[Michael]

dax wrote:
Thereby, I hope, they will come
to appreciate fully the importance and rightness of my work,
especially as the effect it produces, now known to a wide public
and more than amply described in this document, has never been matched by any other known mechanical device. (Not, of course, that my device invalidates known principles, or renders
all existing types of machine obsolete). Pg 223 DT

From JC’s DT http://www.free-energy.co.uk/

Wonder if this is translated properly? Bessler is always claiming he discovered a great hidden secret, but here he says it breaks no laws. You would have thought if it was static electricity or electricity that he would announce that it was some thing new, instead it sounds like an application of something old.


Bessler says, not matched by any other known device [see above Drebbel & Becherus comments] - And, as you point out, does not invalidate known principles.

Fletcher there is also a quote supplied from Bessler that might be a part of this. I'll have to search around for it but paraphrased he says his machine doesn't just provide for its own motion like others have sought to make, but his is capable of doing work. Work meaning in comparision substantial work. In that context the others don't match his.

[Michael]

Jim some paragraphs in Bessler's work show his interest in manufacturing. He talks about making over 50 machines, and all of the uses like mining for example his wheel can be used for. And for perfecting the wheel so it can work with a spare part and be easily repaired. When he talked about selling the wheel he mentioned several different avenues, like a large group of investors buying it, reducing individual cost and if someone didn't want to put out the full amount they could put out a lesser amount and swear an oath until the time when they could pay the larger amount. It seems he left a wide margin for could be's both in purchasing his wheel and what systems could be set up regarding all of it really, so he could have had manufacturing on his mind as well.