Bessler's wheel and God

[justsomeone]

I would like to have a serious discussion about Bessler's wheel and God. Here are a few things I have been pondering.

1. Why would God give Bessler the solution and not have him pass it on?

2. If it wasn't God's will to give us the technology for a gravity driven wheel in the 1700's, why give it to Bessler?

3. Why didn't God give some one else the solution after Bessler's death?

4. Why would it be the right time now, for God to reveal the solution.

5. Who would God choose next to give this gift ( or curse ) to? What kind of a heart would they have?

6. If God can give us the answer, can he also prevent everyone else from discovering it? ( blinders )

I know our puny minds can't begin to comprehend all of God's mysterious ways.

I would love to hear your thoughts and will offer my opinion later.

Thanks.

[Bill_Mothershead]

Its time to take a break, guy. We all get frustrated from
time to time. Don't get all cranky because your build
didn't work. Don't freak out and give up just yet.

Take a deep breath. Take a walk. Count to ten.

Read something inspirational like this:

http://bible.cc/luke/11-9.htm

I hope you come back when you are feeling better.

Have a little faith.

[greendoor]

Initial thoughts off the cuff (i would need longer to find the chapters and verses, so these are just paraphrased ideas based on my religious mispent youth ...)

1. Why would God give Bessler the solution and not have him pass it on?

God said that if we ask, we receive - if we seek we will find - etc. Bessler must have asked. Sometimes we can get what we ask for, but it isn't God's perfect will. BUT - I suspect this was God's perfect will, for reasons below. God often gives his prophets a glimpse of the future, at a time when they can't see it take place in their own time. But their testimony provides hope and inspiration for those who follow. The Holy Spirit decides the times and seasons and boundaries - "thus far and no further" ... until the chosen time. (And when an idea is ready, often it is released simultaneously to different people working "alone" all around the globe ...)

2. If it wasn't God's will to give us the technology for a gravity driven wheel in the 1700's, why give it to Bessler?

Don't you think he might have been born for it? God "gives young men visions, and old men dreams" - this was what Bessler had to do. Importantly - it came at a time when Newton's ideas were taking hold, which spawned a Godless 'science' that empowered atheism. Actually, Newton was a bit of a God botherer himself (I think in a creepy way?). But if you read the history of the pioneers of "Energy" - they were a bunch of godless characters, some who took their own life.

Personally - I believe that the very axioms of our "science falsely so called" contains errors that have perverted the course of History. Bessler was the fly in the ointment, that demonstrated to thinking men even to today that MAYBE things are not as they seem ... God doesn't let his people be fooled - He exposes error and injustice, in His own time and in His own way ...

3. Why didn't God give some one else the solution after Bessler's death?

The time still isn't right yet. But the standard has been raised, and we have Hope ...

4. Why would it be the right time now, for God to reveal the solution.

Well maybe it isn't yet. I strongly suspect that we are being held back on purpose. Some may believe in conspiracy theories - but you also have to consider that the Holy Spirit doesn't want this to happen just yet. Everything in life is a spiritual battle first and foremost. Earthly affairs simply reflect what is taking place in Spirit. Just as our earthly Body follows along after our Spirit (generally).

5. Who would God choose next to give this gift ( or curse ) to? What kind of a heart would they have?

Probably another ornery cuss just like Bessler :) A few around here might fit the bill ... a special character, for sure. Most of men of faith in the Bible were strange dudes ... strange ...

6. If God can give us the answer, can he also prevent everyone else from discovering it? ( blinders )

God loves to hide things from the "wise of this world", and give things to children. Think about it: here is the greatest intelligence in the Universe - He knows the location of every particle in the universe at any point in time ... He can't be fooled, ever. He must look down on the "wise" and arrogant people as being very dumb children who are out of line. Like a good parent, He just lets them make an arse of themselves so they can find a little humility perhaps ...

God knows the consequences of everything He allows. Good inventions get used for war, more often than not.

If you think you can handle it, He may allow you to enjoy a free energy invention. There is a religious bunch who have an electrical free energy device - the name escapes me but starts with M. They are fairly low key, and seem to have played this well.

Greed is an evil root ... Bessler was smart ...

[greendoor]

It's very hard for non-believers to get past the basic questions such as "If God is all powerful, why does He allow this, or why doesn't He stop that" ...

Is know a good time to mention Hitler and declare this thread over :)

The parable of the tares and the wheat explains a lot ... He lets the good and the bad grow together, so they are seen to be what they are, and then sorts it out at the end.

[Wubbly]

The answer to all of these questions depend on your definition of God. OK, I don't like to admit it, but I spent several decades trapped in a church before I was able to extricate myself from the ... how do I say this politely ... "mind control", and this is my take on your questions.

1. Why would God give Bessler the solution and not have him pass it on?

God works in mysterious ways, or maybe she just has a real sick sense of humor.

2. If it wasn't God's will to give us the technology for a gravity driven wheel in the 1700's, why give it to Bessler?

See answer to question 1.

3. Why didn't God give some one else the solution after Bessler's death?

She likes to see people suffer. No, she enjoys watching people suffer. Didn't you have a sandbox as a kid? After building a castle, what do you do? You wreck the castle. You pour water on it and watch it wash away. Or you do a godzilla and stomp it. It's more fun to wreck the castle than to build it. Maybe that's what God is like. She enjoys watching civilizations built up and stomped down. Or maybe God never gave it to Bessler in the first place. Also, see answer to question 1.

4. Why would it be the right time now, for God to reveal the solution.

There is no reason for now to be the right time. Now is just another random, insignificant point in time in the history of the Earth. You just happen to be living now.

5. Who would God choose next to give this gift ( or curse ) to? What kind of a heart would they have?

Depends on your definition of God, and whether your definition of God has the ability to give a gift (or cuse) to an individual. The person or corporation that discovers it will do so based on a great deal of research, trial and error, and perspiration. Your definition of God may or may not have anything to do with the discovery. The heart required would be one that pumps blood.

6. If God can give us the answer, can he also prevent everyone else from discovering it? ( blinders )

If. A big "if". Again, depends on your definition of God. What about all the people who lived before you who worshiped a God and who asked their God to help them find the solution. What makes you/us any more special than they? Nothing.

[greendoor]

Wubbly - interesting view point ... I too spent several decades trapped in a church before I was able to extricate myself from the "mind control".

I have a revulsion for "organised religion" - but as it happens, so did Jesus. Yes - a lot depends on what your definition of God is ...

One definition of a 'god' is simply anything/anyone that you worship. Let's face it - we all worship something. Some choose to worship 'Science'; some choose to worship the almighty Dollar. Some choose to worship a rat - or a cow - or any number of things.

I choose to believe that the Universe is created and sustained by an intelligent Creator, and that life is much bigger than we can possibly imagine. The other option (which I gather you favor) is that this is all some huge mistake that will come to a meaningless nothing in the end.

I can't ignore the beauty and complexity of the universe, and everything in it and discard it all as simply some huge accident. The more I consider particle physics, the more the whole thing appears to behave like software rather than hardware. I have come to believe that the 'empty vacuum space' of the universe is actually God - and that all matter, all energy, all information is available from that source. Matter, as we know it, and electromagnetic waves, gravity etc - in my opinion - are waves created in this invisible, but supremely powerful, substrate that some call Aether.

Like fish in the ocean of water - bubbles and ripples in the water appear to be real things, and the water appears to be nothing. But we know that the water is the real thing, and the bubbles and ripples are just waves in the medium. They have their own reality - you can move things around with bubbles and ripples.

Many deep thinkers have considered reality to be structured like this. It is quite different from the Newtonian view of bouncing ball particles in a vacuum.

Fools say "Where is God - I can't see Him?" God says, you can't escape Him. He is "closer than breathing" ... what is closer than breathing? The oxygen atoms that circulate in our blood? Or the Aether out of which the oxygen Atoms are made?

Omnipotent, Omnipresent & Omniscient ... All the Forces of the Universe; Everywhere in the Universe; Knowing All things (which must include the location at any point in Time of every particle in the Universe ...

I view the Universe in some ways to resemble a huge Hard Drive disk ... everything that happens, is happening, or will happen, is being recorded indelibly on this blank substrate - the substance out of which everything from hard diamonds to soft kittens are made from ...

And maybe this 'data' that we think is so solid could be 'wiped' or re-written if the designer so choses ...

All I know is that it's extremely complex, and no human being has the time or brain capacity to ever figure it all out. The big question for me is simply - does it really matter what choices I make? If we are all going to die like batteries, then maybe nothing matters at all. In that scenario, Hitler was a good guy - doing what evolution dictated he should have done ... survival of the fittest, etc. Every man to himself - the guy with the most toys is the winner.

But what if we have a soul or spirit that survives physical death? If so - where do we go (and where did the billions of other people before us go)?

For many reasons, i'm absolutely convinced that we are spirit beings and our conscious mind does not depend on having an earthly body. The implications of that are astonishing, if you have the balls to allow yourself to think about it ...

[Ed]

justsomeone,

Could you please clarify if it is you who believes God gave the solution to Bessler or that Bessler himself said God gave him the solution? If the later, please cite sources for further discussion.

Thanks

[nicbordeaux]

Heavy stuff guys. If God chooses me to make a working gravity / cf wheel with a decent power output, and I recognize it as such, I shall burn a couple of candles in a church, and pay for them too. Yeah, I know, I already owe about 5 candles. I'll make good on all seven.

[rocky]

To answer Ed's question:

"Could you please clarify if it is you who believes God gave the solution to Bessler or that Bessler himself said God gave him the solution? If the later, please cite sources for further discussion."

Bessler wrote:

"I'd be overcome by great sorrow, would go to my bedroom full of anguish and weep bitterly, till finally God took pity on me, showed me his love, and blessed with good fortune my ensuing labours. I had a rare dream... God had sent Joy after sorrow. For I put together the very first device which could spontaneously revolve a little. I saw that I had finally made the right choice, and why the earlier ones had been wrong. My heart leapt for joy at the sight of this genuine Mobile... It was God who made it possible for me, and so it is God alone whom I must praise.� AP 269

I was curious of just how religious Bessler was. In his three published books of GB, AP and DT he used the word “God� 260 times.

One of my favorite Bessler quotes is:
“If Wagner, the great scholar, had come up with the Mobile, God wouldn't have been given any credit, as it would all have been put down to - scholarship. But God deigned instead to turn to a poor peasant who amounts to nothing! And yet from nothing, God has created something! Is not honour due alone to the Almighty Creator?� AP 337

I have been working on this mobile for 40 years just using science.

After reading John Collin’s excellent books I learned that Bessler was deeply religious and that he said it was only through God that he discovered it. So ... Since I am a Christian I have been praying for help with the solution and should I be blessed with the discovery, I promise to praise Him for the discovery and to use any profits from it to make the world a better place.

My wife and I support some orphans overseas. They would probably be dead or in terrible suffering if no one helped.

Who have you helped lately? Would God smile on you for your good works? Do you do volunteer work to help others?
I was surprised to see this thread here as the last time I brought religion up I was politely asked to move it Off-Topic.

GB – Grundlicher Bericht (Thorough Report), Bessler, Germany 1715, J. Collins/translated by Mike Senior 2005
AP – Apologia Poetica (Formal Poetic Defense), Bessler, Germany 1716, John Collins/translated by Mike Senior 2005
DT – Das Triumphirende (The Triumphant Orffryrean Perpetual Motion), Bessler, Germany 1719, J. Collins/Mike Senior 2005

[james kelly]

Bessler did more than leave clues. He actually included drawings that operate as drawn.

[Wubbly]

Could you please clarify if it is you who believes God gave the solution to Bessler or that Bessler himself said God gave him the solution? If the later, please cite sources for further discussion.

Here are some quotes from Das Triumphans Perpetuum Mobile Orffyreanum by Johann Bessler, edited and published by John Collins (paper version 2005):

pg 201:
"Dear God, Thou Who Art Alone the Almighty ... But it was Your power which drove me on through so much tireless searching and questing. Your mercy gave me patience, Your omnipotence gave me understanding, and it was through Your kind choice, which alone possesses wisdom, that I was allowed to attain the goal. "

pg 221:
"Rather, that it pleased the Almighty, after in His Wisdom leading me along many a winding detour and through many a waste place, thereby sufficiently testing my faith and my resolve, to crown my efforts by revealing to me in all its perfection, the Secret destined for the world, but, as it were, promised to me as a reward for my aforementioned faith and constancy of purpose. All of this, not just the Lord's wonderful guidenace ..."

pg 229:
"Especially as I am very well aware that many, many needy people are set to benefit, as much as I am, from my machine, which God, answering my prayer, ordered should be granted to me, ..."

pg 230
"When, with God's guidance, in the year 1712, at Gera in the Voigtland, contrary to all expectation, the Orffyreus Perpetual Motion finally revealed itself ..."

[FunWithGravity2]

The circles, right James ?

Dave

[Wubbly]

Bessler did more than leave clues. He actually included drawings that operate as drawn.

FWG, I think he was referring to this one:
(drawing is from Das Triumphans Perpetuum mobile Orffyreanum by Johann Bessler, edited and published by John Collins 2005, pg 234.)

[Ben]

Nick,
This is not meant to be negative, so please don't take it that way. You wrote,
". . .If God chooses me to make a working gravity / cf wheel with. . . "

When man ate from the tree of knowledge and lost the Garden, God quit choosing. He gave us the choice. What makes the great men of the Bible great is not that they were chosen by God, but that they chose God. From reading Bessler's writings regarding this, it's evident that he also chose God.
Ben

[Art]

Good one Ben.

Art