Cornelius Drebbel

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daxwc
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Cornelius Drebbel

Post by daxwc »

A Cornelius Drebbel letter to King James while I think he was in jail in Praque or shortly after.


http://www.santa-coloma.net/drebbel/letter.html


In addition, it is also possible to see a glass full of water that rises and descends according to time, just as the sea. In every 24 hours, it rises and descends twice in 40 minutes twice so punctually – always automatically moving itself -that it is possible to tell the hour and minute of the day from the rise and the descent. But if the sun is clouded or going down the fountains finish working, except for those two mentioned above that spring forth forever;
What is he talking about air tides? Seems to be a different beast then his clock.
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by Fletcher »

It sounds more like a water barometer type of machine - he talks about all these things being possible with nothing but the suns rays & if the sun has gone in then hold them in your warm hands & see them move - stirling type engines - so a water barometer could rise & fall once per day if the suns rays were focused on the air contained above the column of water which would expand & contract in the glass containment tube bulb - presumably on a sunny day as the sun climbed to its azimuth the focused rays would heat the air & it would expand [hottest at 12 o'cl directly overhead ?] & then as the suns angle dipped contraction would occur & water level dropped - why that should happen twice per day I don't have a theory & moon light doesn't heat the air considerably.

What is clear is that Drebbel was into thermodynamics, air pressure & vessels.
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by daxwc »

Fletcher Quote:
he talks about all these things being possible with nothing but the suns rays
Yes, thats what I thought at first but if you closely read it closely, it says it works no matter if the sun is shining. Least I think it says that... not sure.
In addition, it is also possible to see a glass full of water that rises and descends according to time, just as the sea. In every 24 hours, it rises and descends twice in 40 minutes twice so punctually – always automatically moving itself -that it is possible to tell the hour and minute of the day from the rise and the descent. But if the sun is clouded or going down the fountains finish working, except for those two mentioned above that spring forth forever;


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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by Fletcher »

In addition, to this musical instrument (called virginals) I have decided to join a well, from which two fountains spring forth, perpetually flowing. If the sun shines, from this a hundred different and various streams will come out as a greatly joyful sight.
These are the two he mentions above.

Interestingly he talks about his clock & being able to advance or retard the hands by a couple of hours & it will self correct to the correct time - got to be a diurnal pressure rhythm but if it's sun powered then that pressure must be caused by temperature ?
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by ovyyus »

I agree Fletcher, diurnal temperature change seems a likely energy source for the clock. Perhaps a prime mover similar to my thermal disk design, where two copper disks (good thermal conductivity) hold a volatile liquid vapour lock under spring tension? In the drawing, any temperature change results in a change of vapour pressure acting on the two disks, which forces the scissor to extend or contract and do work.
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by daxwc »

After searching around, I still think the effects of water in the glass probably have ran off barometric variations not temperature directly, there is no other way to explain the 12 hr rise at night.

At ground level, atmospheric tides can be detected as regular but small oscillations in surface pressure with periods of 24 and 12 hours.
The largest amplitude atmospheric tides are generated by the periodic heating of the atmosphere by the Sun – the atmosphere is heated during the day and not heated at night. This regular diurnal (daily) cycle in heating generates tides that have periods related to the solar day. It might initially be expected that this diurnal heating would give rise to tides with a period of 24 hours, corresponding to the heating's periodicity. However, observations reveal that large amplitude tides are generated with periods of 24 and 12 hours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_tides


But is he really sayng one happens at night or at 12 hrs or twice at 40 minutes in the day or is 40 minutes the duration of the movement?
In every 24 hours, it rises and descends twice in 40 minutes twice so punctually

Also interesting;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barometric_light

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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by daxwc »

Kuffler told me that sir Drebbel had made one of his perpetual motions for the Prince of Wales. And there was another fine thing. You had to install this instrument against a wall where a hole was drilled, a wall facing the sun. Then insert a small wooden instrument, as the one used to knead bread, in the hole and lay it in such a position that the sun can reach it at least once a month. There is a huge pendulum attached at the end of this instrument and said that when the sun reaches this instrument it adjusts the hand to its real midday, such as if the hands were showing 3 o’clock, they would turn back by themselves to midday. These wooden instrument looked as follows and could be adjusted in the middle:
That’s what I have learnt from Kuffler as far as perpetual motion is concerned.
While researching Drebbel, I came across this quote from Drebbel's son-in-law Kuffler. Anybody have any ideas as to the process he is talking about to reset the time? I believe we can be fairly certain that Bessler studied Drebbel and was probably the reason he travelled to England, Ireland and Holland.

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Last edited by daxwc on Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by nicbordeaux »

daxwc wrote:
But is he really sayng one happens at night or at 12 hrs or twice at 40 minutes in the day or is 40 minutes the duration of the movement?
In every 24 hours, it rises and descends twice in 40 minutes twice so punctually
He is quite clearly stating that in every 24 hour period, with great punctuality, "it" rises once and descends once, and that both the rise and the descent take precisely 40 minutes. One can not conclude from the sentance/quote that the interval seprating these two movements is 12 hours. However much one would tend to read that into the quote.
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by path_finder »

Another water wheel: look at the video here:
http://www.clipser.com/watch_video/519247
I cannot imagine why nobody though on this before, including myself? It is so simple!...
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by getterdone »

Thanks for sharing this find Dax

Somehow I think he was using his knowledge of the magnafying glass and telescopes to heat up water, then using shall amounts of steam to or liquid escapement to power his meccanical devices, using the heat to recoil the springs in his devices the same way James Cox used barometic pressure recoil his clock called Perpetual Motion
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by daxwc »

Thanks getterdone, I like the direction you are headed, but how does it adjusts it's self to midday. What I mean is how does it know it is midday? Hottest time of the day in Prague would not be exactly midday. Only thing exactly midday is solar gravity and why the oversized pendulum. Also once a month makes you suspcious of a lunar connection.

a position that the sun can reach it at least once a month. There is a huge pendulum attached at the end of this instrument and said that when the sun reaches this instrument it adjusts the hand to its real midday,
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by Mark »

A quick kibitz from the land of lurkers - -
Daily temperature peak, mid-day shadow or solar gravity, none of these are of a short enough duration to set a clock to.
Not that I have any idea what it could be.
when the sun reaches this instrument
One can take a radiometer to Antarctica and it'll still work. Yes, I know they weren't around back then, just making a point.
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Post by greendoor »

For some reason i missed this one. Wow - that letter is remarkable. It's so out-there that it is either a work of 17th century fiction, or Cornelius was a helluva con-man, OR - he discovered some technology bordering on magic.

Assuming this letter is not a fraud - Cornelius is taking his life into his hands by making such bold promises to the king.
Secondly, I am able to make an instrument, with which it is possible to read letters from a distance of one English mile. I do not doubt that, if Your Majesty wishes to come to my help with the cost of it (as I hope), I can ascertain that it will work so much better that it will be possible to read these letters from around 5, 6 or 7 miles; and one will not even need that the letters be – to put it bluntly - big. With the help of these instruments Your Majesty will be able to see things that are 8 or 10 miles away just as well as if they were in Your Majesty’s own room. My intruments are not similar to vulgar optical glasses, and it is not possible to make copies of them.


This had to get the kings attention: this is a military advantage (pre-telegraph & radio of course). But think of the technical implications: "not similar to vulgar optical glasses". So Drebbel has found a way of precisely focusing light (and possibly other electromagnetic waves) that does not require optic lenses ... fascinating! So he could focus solar radiation in a special way ... what cool things could we do with this?

Maybe this was simply solar power - assisted by his special focusing device. A sundial is a pretty accurate clock, as long as the sun shines. By focusing light that arrives from a specific range of angles, we could get a powerful energy source at precisely timed intervals. Maybe he knew how to use steam? Maybe he knew how to make a radiometer? Imagine an expansion vessel or radiometer that was supplied by focused sunlight that was collected over a wide effective surface area due to Drebbels special light collector ... I can imagine a powerful little engine that could start up when the sun reaches a certain point, aka time.

If his collector works with other electromagnetic waves (and he didn't have to know about these other invisible waves in order to make use of them), then possibly he found that his solar device actually worked night and day? I understand there is a new generation of solar panels that work at night, because they absorb other wavelengths that are not blocked by the earth the way that light is blocked. Listen to a shortwave radio - it gets really noisy at night!

But i'm almost certain that he is also talking about tidal power (gravity oscillations) too. We all know that the sea rises and falls twice daily - and any body of water connected to the sea. There is nothing stopping us using tidal power for real energy applications. Maybe he just ran a long tube to a river or the sea? The daily oscillations could certainly power a clock or a display such as described.

But the gravity oscillations that cause the sea tides to rise & fall don't just exist over the sea! They exist everywhere - over land. There are land tides and air tides as well. We just don't see the air rising and falling - but we experience the winds that result from this (as well as the solar energy input into the wind flow). And we don't see the earth rising and falling, because we are standing on it. But rise and fall it does. Not as freely as the air or the water, because of the nature of solids. But tidal energy is immense - and there probably is a way to capture this energy over land, without requiring a connection to the sea. Maybe he was just using barometric pressure (air tides coupled with solar activity).

I wonder if we could make solids behave more like liquids - for the purpose of obtaining tidal power over land? Imagine we elevated a large quantity of solid mass at "low tide" when gravity was weak, and then let them fall onto a gravity wheel at "high tide" when gravity is stronger .... would the energy obtained be greater than the energy expended? If not - why not? Because we know that sea tides can generate enormous energy. Why is the sea different? The attraction between the Moon and the molecules of water in the sea should be exactly the same as the attraction between the Moon and molecules of mass over land ... why do we insist that this is impossible?? I expect some knee-jerk reaction from the armchair scientists who have been trained to drool on demand ... but this is a serious question that needs more than a knee-jerk response.
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by laikkis »

The Voynich Manuscript Drebbel's lost notebook?

http://www.santa-coloma.net/voynich_dre ... ynich.html
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re: Cornelius Drebbel

Post by rlortie »

A link worthy of re-posting for the amusement of new members'

http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... en%26lr%3D
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