The yoyo, the workers and the clutch...

[Fletcher]

Yes, I have some ideas & thoughts.

The blue pendulum is free falling not engaging the flywheel during its fall to 6 o'cl to have maximum Ke.

N.B. if it were to drag the flywheel with it it would naturally slow its rate of fall & reduce its Ke at 6 o'cl but the flywheel would get some rotational Ke & momentum in a direct trade-off so there is no advantage either way.

After the hit & transference of energy to the waiting green pendulum the waiting pendulum swings up to around 9 o'cl - there it interacts with the flywheel driving it forward & at the same time stopping the rising pendulum - once again a direct trade-off.

The pendulum drops out a barb to engage the rachet so that the flywheel can lever it up to 12 o'cl to repeat the process.

Firstly, everything you propose is direct trade-off energy wise - you loose in one place to gain in another & all would even out with no system losses - I think we agree on that.

I think your rising pendulum would need to rise higher to get the rachet engaging mechanism to deploy correctly unless spring loaded.

You are most probably correct & the simplest way to give Ke to the flywheel is for it to hit the flywheel - in this case an impulse [soft] would perhaps work better than an impact with less losses.

As you have already mentioned this is very similar to Bessler's MT55 - Bessler solved the problem by splitting the actions onto two shafts - the pendulums fall [one at a time from 12 o'cl] & instead of impacting another waiting pendulum they hit a paddle wheel geared to the rachet set to raise the pendulums in turn - my description of MT55's principle disagrees with what others here feel is the principle behind MT55 but it is how I have always viewed it.

So for testing purposes you can simplify your idea down to something closer to Bessler's MT55 i.e. a falling pendulum hitting a lower paddle wheel geared to a rachet to raise an equivalent weight to starting potential etc.

[path_finder]

In any case How to build this 8:3:2 reduction mechanism?
As explained earlier at the last lines of this old message here:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 5fea#74371
I don't think Bessler used any gear, but instead does discover the 'cycloidal reductor'.

Somewhere I have seen that Bessler put a big amount of weights in a box for the transfer of his wheel (please Stewart can your confirm this point? many thanks).
IMHO these cylinders were not used as weights, but as some teeth like in the cycloidal reductor
(see the red circles in the shot below, an extract of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfcyTgQsFW8).

The difficulties I encountered in the motion of my handmade cycloid reductor
remember here: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 5632#75632
and here: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=8432
could be solved by the addition of such as cylinders.
In fact the circles have been initially drawn for an easier cut, but now I must insert the cylinders at these places.
The work is now in progress.

edited:
This technology (rediscovered and patented by Lorenz Braren in Munich in 1931, the founder of Cyclo Gmbh) has an enormous advantage: no need for a delicate tooling of involuted teeth.
You need only to make some circular holes and some small cylinders. All the tools needed to do that simple job, were available at the time of Bessler.

[Mark]

Somewhere I have seen that Bessler put a big amount of weights in a box for the transfer of his wheel

I think what you are referring to is from an eyewitness account made by one of Bessler's "enemies", Christian Wagner.

From one of John Collins' many websites:

On the other hand, at the experiment, before the wheel was set up at another place in different boards, he had taken an amount of weight out of the wheel which could have filled a considerable box, and in the received testimony he expressly admits that the weights are inside and are driven.

The quote is extracted from section IX: (--link--)

[Fletcher]

dp

[Fletcher]

I think what you are referring to is from an eyewitness account made by one of Bessler's "enemies", Christian Wagner.

From one of John Collins' many websites:

On the other hand, at the experiment, before the wheel was set up at another place in different boards, he had taken an amount of weight out of the wheel which could have filled a considerable box, and in the received testimony he expressly admits that the weights are inside and are driven.

The quote is extracted from section IX: (--link--)

This was the translocation test to which he is referring IINM, where Bessler stopped his bi-directional wheel, took out many weights, men lifted the wheel cross to another stand & journal set, Bessler reinstalled the weights, & the wheel was set going again with a slight push.

The interesting thing in Wagner's account is that he says Bessler expressly says the weights [he took out] are driven - not the driver or drivers - this suggests to me that the weights were a part of an OOB principle but something else inside the wheel drove them into position to remain OOB, whereupon gravity caused torque & rotation.

Unless anyone else can think of a more fundamental & plausible meaning for the words 'weights are inside & are driven' ?

P.S. I have no reason to doubt that the translation is accurate.

[path_finder]

Dear Mark,
Many thanks for the reference.

Dear Fletcher,
My meaning is: these observed numerous weights were NOT a part of the primemover(s ?), but they were driven by the primemover(s ?), following the rotation of the wheel, and by the way representing the most important part of the flywheel. The presence of numerous such as cylinders can be explained no otherwise than for mechanical reasons, because the best torque cannot be obtained by an excessive number of weights (only a small number of heavy weights). Just my opinion.


In any case How to build this 8:3:2 reduction mechanism? (again)
Another solution is to use some cylindrical rollers instead of the teeth, like in the first drawing below.
Note that the value used in this drawing for the slow disk inner rim rollers (48) is the same you can observe on the Bessler wheel picture.

In addition, if you forget the cycloidal reductor technology and also the gears replaced by this above depicted rollers, there is a third method already discussed before here:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=8555
This method is interesting because it requires NO teeth nor rollers at all: it is based just on the friction.
In that case the most important point is to get an excellent contact between the both surfaces.
This is exactly what you can obtain with the mechanism shown in the shot (see the blue arrows), the three good contacts being assumed by the summarization of the forces resultant from the three springs.
But now if we have a good contact for the 3x2 reduction stage, what kind of mechanism shall we setup for the 8x3 last stage (in view to obtain an excellent contact between the three black wheels and the inner rim of the slow disk)? The solution could be found here: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=8554 by using the red lockers, but not at the place shown in the drawing, but located at the rear side of the black wheels and in contact with the inner rim of the slow disk.
I will make an attempt to see if it can work like here suggested.

Note also
1. if there is a small slippery, this does not disturb mainly the wheel motion.
2. this drove me to reconsider the internal design of the flowerbowl, wich could be now inserted in an hollow drum (another missing part), and opens to me a new door.

[Fletcher]

dp

[Fletcher]

As always path_finder I watch with fascination your builds, the results are almost inconsequential to the artistry.

My meaning is: these observed numerous weights were NOT a part of the primemover(s ?), but they were driven by the primemover(s ?), following the rotation of the wheel, and by the way representing the most important part of the flywheel.


The presence of numerous such as cylinders can be explained no otherwise than for mechanical reasons, because the best torque cannot be obtained by an excessive number of weights (only a small number of heavy weights). Just my opinion.

We agree more than you suspect path_finder - I add this for thought - many small weights co-located in the z axis dimension can equal one big weight, so they could still be the most efficient torque producers in the flywheel but moved into position by the primemover(s) or primemoving force ?!

N.B. many small weights are much easier to disassemble & reassemble etc than one large cumbersome & heavy weight which you might drop when leaning awkwardly inside a covered wheel.

[path_finder]

Dear Fletcher,
On the multiplicity of the weights you are probably right, but IMHO only if you are using a design based on the Tesla patent (rotating linked objects with the COG outside of the material).


More details on the new door (for those interested within the flowerbowl):
The three yellow rollers are located on the hyperboloidal surface of the three oblong holes.
On one side there are connected by the orange rods to the axles of the three blue rollers (the stage '3' of the 8-3-2 reduction mechanism).
On the other side (at the rear side of the flowerbowl) there are connected to the springs (in violet)
This clever idea reduces from half the size of the design, and allows to put everything inside the drum.
The central axle of the flowerbowl is the stage '2' of the 8-3-2 mechanism.
The hollow drum (in green) is the stage '8' of the 8-3-2 reduction mechanism.
The right side of the picture is an half-cut (top) of the flowerbowl from the left side view.
Last question (not resolved yet): where and how to insert the stone heavy balls (please Mr Gill Simo, help me).
For memory: a shot of the flowerbowl here: http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=6507



edited:
some errors have been corrected in the drawing (exchanged)

[Stewart]

Unless anyone else can think of a more fundamental & plausible meaning for the words 'weights are inside & are driven' ?

P.S. I have no reason to doubt that the translation is accurate.

I haven't had time to study that whole text in detail yet, but after a quick look I doubt very much that that is what it means. Here is the original text from the end of that sentence...

"... daß Gewichter darinnen und dadurch getrieben werde."

I would translate that as...

"... that weights [are] in it and [it] will be driven by them."

[where 'it' refers to the wheel]

The word 'dadurch' has been ignored, but it means 'by them' here. This fits with the simple statements by Bessler that his wheels were driven by weights, and I don't think it's possible to glean anything more useful or more specific than that from this piece of text.

Stewart

[Fletcher]

Thanks Stewart, as always.

Those two little words "by them - dadurch" change the complexion completely & no greater insight can be gained form Wagner's comment - it does indeed suggest that the wheel was driven by the weights - but then, as you say, Bessler had said this on many occasions - while it does not provide any sort of smoking gun [which I had hoped it would] it also doesn't rule out the hypothesis that the OOB weights were the secondary mechanism that created the torque & something else moved those weights into position aka the prime mover or prime moving force.

Oh well, it would be nice if Bessler had slipped up now & again, not to say that he didn't somewhere, sometime, that was recorded accurately & can't be dismissed - I guess that's the value of translating all this stuff, to find those one or two gems in the washings - you & Ed have far more patience & aptitude for it than me & I thank you for it.

[path_finder]

The design suggested above in this thread here:http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=8802
seems to be related to the concept proposed earlier by winkle in this old thread:http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... =8832#8832
The missing part of the winkle's design could be an external coaxial drum where the falling arm could act as a clutch, transferring some energy impulse to a flywheel(the drum).