Conservation of Jerk

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re: Conservation of Jerk

Post by Grimer »

Asymmetric Inertia

I can't see any advantage in allowing the outer casing , the high inertia wheel to run backwards so one may as well give it a free wheel.

This means that in one direction we have a wheel with some modest finite inertia in one direction. clockwise say, and an almost infinite inertia in the other because it is reacting via the frame against the earth. We have an asymmetric inertia outer wheel.

The same device may as well be fitted to inner wheel since there in no need for it to go backwards either.

This, combined with path_finder's torque store for rotational energy raises interesting possibilities that I hadn't considered before.

Consider the following sequence of events.

Initially both wheels are balanced both statically and dynamically with the weights on the outer wheel.

A weight is transferred from the inner wheel to the outer wheel at 1.30 o'clock.

This means that the inner wheel now rotates clockwise and stores its energy as torque in the axle torque store. The outer wheel is escapement pinned so that both its clockwise and counter-clockwise inertia is virtually infinite.

The torque mechanism in the axle tube connects the inner and outer axles.

The inner wheel comes to a halt when its clockwise moment balances the anticlockwise moment of the axle torque strain store. Let this be 4.30, say. To keep things nice and tidy the inner wheel is escapement pinned at 4.30.

The escapement pin on the outer wheel in then released and release of the torque strain energy drives the outer wheel forward to 4.30.

The weight on the inner wheel in then transferred back to the outer wheel in the same slot as it came out of in the first place. This removes the problem of which slot a weight goes back into. It always goes back into the slot it came out of.

Properly designed escapement pins, escapement mechanism, require only minimal energy for their operation so we can forget about energy loss there.

This asymmetric inertia step action is similar to the action we use when walking. Alternately each foot has almost infinite inertia as it pushes against the ground.

It would seem that the wheels having two different inertia was only the first step on the road to Rome, the first step to the wheels having asymmetric inertias.

The above action represents a man putting his best foot forward and then bringing up the other foot. One could move closer to the action of walking by having identical wheels side by side and moving them forward alternately.

But probably best to progress one step at a time by building a Keenie wheel first, eh!
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re: Conservation of Jerk

Post by Grimer »

doubled post
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Re: re: Conservation of Jerk

Post by Grimer »

Grimer wrote:Asymmetric Inertia

I can't see any advantage in allowing the outer casing , the high inertia wheel to run backwards so one may as well give it a free wheel.

This means that in one direction we have a wheel with some modest finite inertia in one direction. clockwise say, and an almost infinite inertia in the other because it is reacting via the frame against the earth. We have an asymmetric inertia outer wheel.

The same device may as well be fitted to inner wheel since there in no need for it to go backwards either.

This, combined with path_finder's torque store for rotational energy raises interesting possibilities that I hadn't considered before.

Consider the following sequence of events.

Initially both wheels are balanced both statically and dynamically with the weights on the outer wheel.

A weight is transferred from the inner wheel to the outer wheel at 1.30 o'clock.

This means that the inner wheel now rotates clockwise and stores its energy as torque in the axle torque store. The outer wheel is escapement pinned so that both its clockwise and counter-clockwise inertia is virtually infinite.

The torque mechanism in the axle tube connects the inner and outer axles.

The inner wheel comes to a halt when its clockwise moment balances the anticlockwise moment of the axle torque strain store. Let this be 4.30, say. To keep things nice and tidy the inner wheel is escapement pinned at 4.30.

The escapement pin on the outer wheel in then released and release of the torque strain energy drives the outer wheel forward to 4.30.

The weight on the inner wheel in then transferred back to the outer wheel in the same slot as it came out of in the first place. This removes the problem of which slot a weight goes back into. It always goes back into the slot it came out of.

Properly designed escapement pins, escapement mechanism, require only minimal energy for their operation so we can forget about energy loss there.

This asymmetric inertia step action is similar to the action we use when walking. Alternately each foot has almost infinite inertia as it pushes against the ground.

It would seem that the wheels having two different inertia was only the first step on the road to Rome, the first step to the wheels having asymmetric inertias.

The above action represents a man putting his best foot forward and then bringing up the other foot. One could move closer to the action of walking by having identical wheels side by side and moving them forward alternately.

But probably best to progress one step at a time by building a Keenie wheel first, eh!
I always like to find flaws in my argument before someone else does.

The above post seem to ignore the difference in Jerk. It would appear that both wheels might have to move at the same time for conservation of jerk to come into play. Holding one back may kill this aspect. Interesting. I've met this situation before on the Steorn forum.

I'll have to give this some careful thought.
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re: Conservation of Jerk

Post by path_finder »

Dear Grimer,
In first approach the needed design for your wheel could be very close from the mechanism used in the Kauertz engine.
In the animation below (click on the icon for a better view, there is a trouble with the downsizing) please note the mutual position of the green and red parts (allowing an exchange of weight) and the ellipsoidal gears to do the job.
Attachments
KauertzMotor_2a.gif
Kauertz_Engine_Rva15a.gif
I cannot imagine why nobody though on this before, including myself? It is so simple!...
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re: Conservation of Jerk

Post by Grimer »

The simplest way to understand the action of jerk is to recognise that there are different orders of Force. The one we are familiar with is the force that is associated with acceleration. There is also a higher order force associated with jerk.

Fa = a · N
Fj = j · N


where Fa is acceleration force and Fj is jerk force.
N is the number of unit masses.

Acceleration energy is acceleration force x distance and jerk energy is jerk force x time.

This is shown by the maths as you can see below

Energy = Fa = a · N x dx = d²x/dt².N x dx = d³x/dt².N

Energy = Fj = j · N x dt . = d³x/dt³.N x dt = d³x/dt².N
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Post by nicbordeaux »

Already 5 pages about jerks, and still no vid or proto ?
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Post by Grimer »

Or photo even. Image
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Post by nicbordeaux »

I'm definitely not trying to stir up trouble Frank, but why is the smiley in your above post linked to Steor n ?. The url reads htt p://kdb.steorn.com/clearspace/images/emoticons/wink.gif (space added deliberately in "http" so as not to give a linkback) ?
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Post by Grimer »

LOL. That's very observant of you Nic. I like it when people are curious.

The explanation is quite simple. I tend to collect emoticons from all over the place. The Steorn one is something left over from all those years I spent on the public Steorn forum. Most of the Steorn emoticons are now inoperative but that one still seems to work so I've kept it as a souvenir. I prefer it to my other wink emoticon Image which is one I stole from Housepricecrash.com
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re: Conservation of Jerk

Post by WaltzCee »

Hello Grimmer,

Is it your belief the Kennie wheel was powered by the inertial difference between the two wheels? I've read the thread but I was hoping you could correct me if I'm off the path of your reasoning.

Given energies are conserved why do you suppose you can make use of a surge in acceleration and not have to repay it? Am I correct in thinking this surge is accumulated on the z axis then feed back to the wheel to power it? How do you imagine the mechanics of this accumulation/drive?

If I'm following you then this inertial difference would have to be the resultant of a very massive wheel or large differences in rates if it's even possible. It sounds akin to a reactionless wheel. I'd have to see it to believe it then I'd still have doubts. I'd be suspecting smoke or mirrors or both. :)

Here is something to chew on. If a gravity powered wheel would disprove the conservative nature of gravity it would follow energy is being either created or caused to magically appear. I'm speaking of energy simply in terms of the difference of position a given mass has over time.

What do you think, Grimmer?

I apologize in advance if you've already covered this ground and I missed it. My comprehension isn't the best. I enjoyed the 60's way too much. There has been talk about managing energy in 3 dimensions. My thoughts are if the doggies of energy can't be corralled in 2 then why give them more room to run? Makes no sense to me.
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re: Conservation of Jerk

Post by Grimer »

WaltzCee wrote:Is it your belief the Kennie wheel was powered by the inertial difference between the two wheels?
No. The difference in inertia leads to a difference in Jerk energy. It is this higher order energy which powers the wheel.
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re: Conservation of Jerk

Post by WaltzCee »

Thank you Grimmer.

When I first began reading this thread I thought it was stupid, what with no pictures, etc. Then I began to form my own pictures with the words and it was giving me a headache. I refused to let the pain slow me down and keep reading. The headache went away and things began to come into focus.

Now that I understand it better I don't mind it so much. I'm glad I read it. Thank you for sharing your idea. I still think you'll need smoke and mirrors. Both. Otherwise it won't work. :)

I had other questions if you could address them I would appreciate it.

Perhaps I could help you resolve the difficulty another poster pointed out. “I don't think you have any idea of the basics of even the simplest motions involved with a working concept.� :) If we could work this problem out you'd be the only one on earth. Now wouldn't that be sweet, eh? Let's get to it.
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Post by Grimer »

If you want pictures there are plenty in the "Impact is the Key" thread.

Read from this post onwards:

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 3543#83543

Also, it's not necessary to enclose your post in Quote tags
- and the name is Grimer not Grimmer. Image
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