POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

[Clarkie]

Dave,

I'm sort of with you but if the board was attached to something that moved, that was attached to the rim, would that work for you?

Needs a spring though, somewhere.

Pete.

[rocky]

Thank you Scott for adding the last poll question. And thank you Fletcher for your excellent comments and attached drawings.

I am putting together statements for another poll to see what we all believe from the clues. The clues are from many different sources:

1. Text clues from Bessler's books
2. Methaphor clues from Bessler's Little Book in AP.
3. Graphic clues from DT portraits and AP last page drawing.
4. Graphic clues from artwork in his books.
5. Visual clues of mechanical structures from MT drawings where he says if you take parts out of different ones and put them together you will find the secret.

Here is the start of my poll list:

The wheel was Impact driven.
The wheel was Out-Of-Balance (OOB) driven with a shifting mechanism.
The wheel was a combo of OOB and Impact driven.
The wheel was driven by weights.
The wheel was driven by weights and springs.
All the weights were the same number of pounds.
All the weights were the same shape.
Weights were at the end of solid lever arms.
Weights were at the end of bendable lever arms.
Folding levers were used.
The wheel was not driven by magnets.
The wheel was not driven by fluids.
The wheel was not driven by air pressure.
The wheel used stork’s bill(s).
The wheel used chord(s).
The wheel used chain(s).
The wheel used pulley(s).
The wheel used chord pulley(s).
The wheel used chain pulley(s).


Can you please give me statements to add to the poll?

A comprehensive new poll like this might lead to a new idea for someone.
Thank you all for helping.

[rlortie]

I guess you could consider this in 'Does the Weight Rest after Impact.

Check out a drop of water!

http://www.flixxy.com/water-drop.htm

Ralph

[jim_mich]

Rocky, there were some differences between the early uni-directional wheel and the later bi-directional wheels. Polls should differentiate which wheel category they relates to. For instance, I'm a firm believer that the bi-directional wheels were driven by impulse. Impulse includes, but is not limited to, impact. Firing a shotgun produces impulse to your shoulder, but it does not produce impact except if you are dumb enough to hold it away from your shoulder when you pull the trigger. I believe the uni-directional wheels were driven by a combination of OOB and impulse, wth the impulse causing a lifting of weights that produced the OOB.

Your list is missing cross-bars.

[justsomeone]

Rocky, The weight comes to rest on the stiff fops!

[Dave Roberts]

Clarkie:
I am of the impression that the visible wheel itself is more of a flywheel and something to conceal the inner workings. I believe that there is an internal frame resting on the center shaft (on bearings and balanced of course) that holds internal components that cause the inner shaft to move (of which the "wheel" is attached). Comments as to OB relating to the rotating wheel itself is something I gave up on long ago. The internal workings drive the center shaft and I believe that the wheel itself is the "resembles a grindstone" (referenced somewhere by John Collins) comment.
The visible wheel being a "flywheel" would help smooth out the actions of the wheel. Again, this is the premise I am currently working on.

You have started an interesting post that deserves a lot of attention.

[Clarkie]

Hi Dave,

Nice to know my post has started something, normally my posts end threads.

Pete.

[nicbordeaux]

I guess you could consider this in 'Does the Weight Rest after Impact.

Check out a drop of water!

http://www.flixxy.com/water-drop.htm

Ralph

Most interesting, thx ralph. Amazing the amount of water movement set up by just a small drop. This one is well worth studying, it applies not only to water, even if in water the superficial tension plays a very big and visible role, ST exists in other materials as well.

BTW, superficial water tension on which most subaquatic insects depend for survival at different stages of their life, is destroyed by agents such as washing up liquids and other stuff we routinely throw into the water, this leads to trout rivers becoming sterile. Because trout feed largely on insects.

Ah, while i'm at it, some mysterious piping on some of the MT stuff, looks like mercury barometers or capilary stuff ? Some interesting properties in capilary.

[rocky]

On my clues that accompanied this poll I forgot to add these two:

MT18 - First drawing with impact boards. Text by Bessler accompanying drawing says “the principle is not to be disregarded�.
MT138-141 figures C and D of German Hammer Toys with two figures alternating hitting an anvil.

Fletcher was kind enough to post a picture of MT18. It matches the hoop and stick toy clue because the weight strikes the rim (on an anvil).
Bessler says to USE this principle; do not disregard it. So then I was curious that several people voted that they believe that the weight does not hit the rim.

Does this mean you believe the weight impacts and creates a noise elsewhere within the wheel?

Some of you believe the wheel is not moved by impact but instead by a shifting Out-Of-Balance(OOB) mechanism. How then do you explain the loud noise from clues?

Do you think witness Professor Christian Wolff observation about the impact boards is not correct? Have you formed an opinion from analyzing other clues?
Could you please expand on your opinion?
I appreciate your thoughts on this matter.

[daxwc]

Wagner Quote,

XI.

Whoever understands mechanics and closely examines the wheel will be readily able to divine the motive principle and consequently the entire internal structure of the wheel from the rapid and constant motion just as one could easily hear the motive principle of the Draschwitz wheel by holding one's ear to the axle. In order that the sleight of hand would be revealed no further, he provided the wheel currently standing in Merseburg with a clatter and a rattle to make it difficult to hear clearly the actual motive principle. He took a further precaution by setting up a railing around the wheel so that no one might touch this mechanical monstrosity with unwashed hands.

Rocky quote:

Some of you believe the wheel is not moved by impact but instead by a shifting Out-Of-Balance(OOB) mechanism. How then do you explain the loud noise from clues?

Rocky, not every wheel was noisy, maybe he had to go to a flywheel setup to make the wheel turn in both directions.


thks

[Clarkie]

daxwc,

We don't know if they were all noisy or not. Where do you get your info on the quite ones?

Pete.

[daxwc]

Pete Quote:

We don't know if they were all noisy or not. Where do you get your info on the quite ones?

MY:

Rocky, not every wheel was noisy

Pete, I did not say quiet... notice, I said noisy; meaning some were more noisy then others as with maybe sliding instead of impacting.

rapid and constant motion just as one could easily hear the motive principle of the Draschwitz wheel by holding one's ear to the axle.

Merseburg with a clatter and a rattle to make it difficult to hear clearly the actual motive principle.

There are lots of information already out and in AP, people are going to believe in what they want anyhow, so I will let you research it ;)
If we were not all stubborn we wouldn't even be trying to build what is thought impossible. 8)))


tks

[Fletcher]

Here's another thought about impact drive & noise Rocky - Mt20 where Bessler talks about his friends design.

"No. 20: Here the previous levers work somewhat more peculiarly and raise up special weights and turn outward to the over balance. For this reason side A is always heavier, my friend supposed but I denied. I then reminded him to harness the horse in front."

- Johann Bessler

Mt19 is the same lever arrangement without the able to "flip up & over" small outer levers that Bessler refers to as causing the OOB - but he seems to be suggesting that the resultant & wasted impact at the rim from the small levers "flipping over" is the horse to put in front of the cart, IMO.

[DrWhat]

Bessler mentions that his first wheels had felt etc coverings, but that with the later wheels he didn't care and let them be noisy.

I can't be bothered :-) finding the exact quote but someone else may have it at hand!

[daxwc]

Hmm...

Interesting Fletcher, you know I have never seen real force displayed in any of my wheels except centripetally, impact was never an issue centrifugally.

Almost no clatter and rattle was to be heard with the Draschwitz wheel; the wheel was made up of 8 spokes and was completely empty near the circumference, as one could see through the various cracks in the casing made of thin splinters, but there was not the slightest trace of a rising and falling weight to be heard or seen

.

MT Quote,

Here I will say only this
much: no wheel is moved by heavy blows, which are more likely to
dash the paddles of the wheel into a 1000 pieces, as though with
bullets. No further explanation is necessary.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... oise#41882

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... oise#49555


thks