Impact is the Key
Moderator: scott
re: Impact is the Key
Does anyone know of a program I can draw up a model in and see how it works? I have created a small working model and am cautiously optimistic, but I would like to see if there is a software program I could draw it in that would carry out the reproduction of movement over a long, long time. My model was built out of balsa wood and I was using golf balls for my moving parts (16 of them) and I dropped it down the stairs. I am getting ready in the next couple days, as soon as I can get to Home Depot, to repeat the build out of plywood. Then perhaps I can get some heavier balls and really give it a shot. It ran for almost 10 minutes before I moved it, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't eventually wind down from friction, so I want to see what a software program would have to say about my design. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am more than willing to share the design if someone else has such a program and wants to give it a shot. It is actually quite simple.
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path_finder
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re: Impact is the Key
Dear 11Turion,
Don't loose your time with any simulation software.
Like explained before one of the reason why the solution has not been found yet in this forum is the overconfidence in the computer and in WM2D in particular.
Even if you find the useful (and expensive) program, you will anyway need a building for the next step, no patent can be obtained without a working wheel.
IMHO if a powerful software had the chance to give the solution, it should be known already.
If I can give to you an advice, think first, then select the most pertinent designs and try to build the correspondent assembly. You will learn much more than with any fallacious routine compiled by a theorician.
Don't loose your time with any simulation software.
Like explained before one of the reason why the solution has not been found yet in this forum is the overconfidence in the computer and in WM2D in particular.
Even if you find the useful (and expensive) program, you will anyway need a building for the next step, no patent can be obtained without a working wheel.
IMHO if a powerful software had the chance to give the solution, it should be known already.
If I can give to you an advice, think first, then select the most pertinent designs and try to build the correspondent assembly. You will learn much more than with any fallacious routine compiled by a theorician.
I cannot imagine why nobody though on this before, including myself? It is so simple!...
re: Impact is the Key
I have no intention of patenting anything. If I ever find something that works, I'll be spreading it all over the internet in as many forums and locations as I can possibly find as fast as I possibly can. My concern is that because of friction, etc., my design might grind to a halt after some time. I guess the proof is in the pudding. I am leaving in five minutes to go get my parts and will have it finished by the end of the day, hopefully. My balsa wood model started with a gentle touch and ran for about ten minutes before I got excited and tried to carry it up the stairs, which ended in disaster. I'm hoping a plywood model will work as well, but the golf balls I was using for the balsa wood model may not be heavy enough for the plywood one, which means I have to find something that is proportional in weight, which means I STILL won't have a working model, which is why I was interested in software.
Re: re: Impact is the Key
Even though I am a theoretician I agree with that. You won't learn a lot from a fallacious routine.path_finder wrote:Dear 11Turion,
Don't loose your time with any simulation software.
Like explained before one of the reason why the solution has not been found yet in this forum is the overconfidence in the computer and in WM2D in particular.
Even if you find the useful (and expensive) program, you will anyway need a building for the next step, no patent can be obtained without a working wheel.
IMHO if a powerful software had the chance to give the solution, it should be known already.
If I can give to you an advice, think first, then select the most pertinent designs and try to build the correspondent assembly. You will learn much more than with any fallacious routine compiled by a theorician.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
re: Impact is the Key
11Turion...
Is it possible to share with us the principle of operation...?
richard
Is it possible to share with us the principle of operation...?
richard
where man meets science and god meets man never the twain shall meet...till god and man and science sit at gods great judgement seat..a tribute to Bessler....kipling I think
re: Impact is the Key
Turion
Working Model 2D is a good simulation program. It admit it has its limitations,but I believe using a balanced approach of simulations and building teaches you more, faster.
Often with simple assemblies in simulation, you can see clearly where the problem lies, and don't have to build, so can save time building something with a bit more promise.
You can download an evaluation version that doesn't allow you to save:
http://workingmodel.design-simulation.com/WM2D/demo.php
Working Model 2D is a good simulation program. It admit it has its limitations,but I believe using a balanced approach of simulations and building teaches you more, faster.
Often with simple assemblies in simulation, you can see clearly where the problem lies, and don't have to build, so can save time building something with a bit more promise.
You can download an evaluation version that doesn't allow you to save:
http://workingmodel.design-simulation.com/WM2D/demo.php
re: Impact is the Key
I didn't quite get as much done today as I had planned, but I will definitely finish up in the morning and then post some pictures and a video on my YouTube site. Whether it works or not I will post. I learn as much from failures as from little successes. I'm not saying I have something that will run forever, but my little version ran for a while before I broke it, so we will see. When I finally have something that works you won't need the internet to hear me yell.
As for what I am doing. I have four sets of weights. (Balls) One set on top, one on the bottom, one on the right, one on the left. None of them can move past the center line in their track. I move the ones on the left from the rim to center, and the ones on the right from center out to the rim on the right. (Just by tipping the wheel slightly in a clockwise direction) The wheel rotates past 90 degrees (clockwise) from the overbalance. Now the weights that were on the top are on the right and the ones that were on the bottom are on the left. The ones on the left move into the center, and the ones on the right move out to the rim. Again the wheel rotates 90 degrees, and I keep repeating that process. Nothing spectacular. Very simple. There's more to it than that, or it wouldn't work like it does, but that is the basic principal.
Thanks for the info on the 2D program. I will have to give it a try tonight after my wife goes to sleep.
As for what I am doing. I have four sets of weights. (Balls) One set on top, one on the bottom, one on the right, one on the left. None of them can move past the center line in their track. I move the ones on the left from the rim to center, and the ones on the right from center out to the rim on the right. (Just by tipping the wheel slightly in a clockwise direction) The wheel rotates past 90 degrees (clockwise) from the overbalance. Now the weights that were on the top are on the right and the ones that were on the bottom are on the left. The ones on the left move into the center, and the ones on the right move out to the rim. Again the wheel rotates 90 degrees, and I keep repeating that process. Nothing spectacular. Very simple. There's more to it than that, or it wouldn't work like it does, but that is the basic principal.
Thanks for the info on the 2D program. I will have to give it a try tonight after my wife goes to sleep.
re: Impact is the Key
11Turion..
are you familiar with the machinen tractate (mt (s)) pages available for our study and research...?
...at top of these pages are links...one being titled (wiki). If you click on wiki...you,ll see an introduction and also other links....
The Machinen tractate is a most excellent resource...for study and comparative analysis.
richard
are you familiar with the machinen tractate (mt (s)) pages available for our study and research...?
...at top of these pages are links...one being titled (wiki). If you click on wiki...you,ll see an introduction and also other links....
The Machinen tractate is a most excellent resource...for study and comparative analysis.
richard
where man meets science and god meets man never the twain shall meet...till god and man and science sit at gods great judgement seat..a tribute to Bessler....kipling I think
re: Impact is the Key
Richard,
Thanks for the link. I have read it several times over the years, and have downloaded it. I agree it is essential information. It is indeed extremely helpful. It is my belief that if you can discover ONE way to do something, there are probably OTHER ways. Not necessarily BETTER ways, but other ways. So I am not trying to discover what Bessler did, because I would have no way of knowing that I had duplicated his device even if I managed to do so. I am more interested in looking at the mechanics of this thing and analyzing based on what I see.
For instance, with my current design, the WIDTH of the track the balls roll in is essential to the design. It must allow the balls not only to move to the right when the set of track is on the horizontal plane, but ALSO move to the right when the the wheel has rotated 90 degrees and the track has moved to the vertical plane. So the tracks need to be two to three times the width of the balls. (Mine are just over twice the width) And the end piece on the track may (must?...not sure yet) FORCE this movement when the track is on the vertical plane by having a slight angle to them. (My original did NOT have angled end pieces purposely, but, when you're working with wood, getting things perfectly straight is not always possible.) This also helps to shift the balance of weights to the right side of the wheel, since the balls would need to be in the CENTER of the tracks for there to be a perfect balance when the tracks are in the vertical position, and all I need to get is a tiny imbalance for the activation of the next set of balls that are at the horizontal plane. With a number of weights on the top half of the wheel shifting to the right and the same amount on the bottom shifting to the right (on the horizontal plane) I have that imbalance, and on the vertical plane half the balls will shift to the right and half the balls will shift to the center. It gives me a consistent overbalance on the right.
Like I said, I am not sure how long it will run, but it ran on my balsa wood model. I will finish it up sometime today, and then we shall see. Although if it runs, I will just let it go and see how long it goes before friction slows it to a halt. And then it will be back to the drawing board to figure out the improvements. And again, I am not sure my plywood model will run with the golf balls I am using as weights. I may have to get some steel balls for the weight. If it DOES run with just golf balls, the steel balls will REALLY get it moving. But it may take me a while to get them delivered!! But by then I will have video posted for all to see.
Thanks for the link. I have read it several times over the years, and have downloaded it. I agree it is essential information. It is indeed extremely helpful. It is my belief that if you can discover ONE way to do something, there are probably OTHER ways. Not necessarily BETTER ways, but other ways. So I am not trying to discover what Bessler did, because I would have no way of knowing that I had duplicated his device even if I managed to do so. I am more interested in looking at the mechanics of this thing and analyzing based on what I see.
For instance, with my current design, the WIDTH of the track the balls roll in is essential to the design. It must allow the balls not only to move to the right when the set of track is on the horizontal plane, but ALSO move to the right when the the wheel has rotated 90 degrees and the track has moved to the vertical plane. So the tracks need to be two to three times the width of the balls. (Mine are just over twice the width) And the end piece on the track may (must?...not sure yet) FORCE this movement when the track is on the vertical plane by having a slight angle to them. (My original did NOT have angled end pieces purposely, but, when you're working with wood, getting things perfectly straight is not always possible.) This also helps to shift the balance of weights to the right side of the wheel, since the balls would need to be in the CENTER of the tracks for there to be a perfect balance when the tracks are in the vertical position, and all I need to get is a tiny imbalance for the activation of the next set of balls that are at the horizontal plane. With a number of weights on the top half of the wheel shifting to the right and the same amount on the bottom shifting to the right (on the horizontal plane) I have that imbalance, and on the vertical plane half the balls will shift to the right and half the balls will shift to the center. It gives me a consistent overbalance on the right.
Like I said, I am not sure how long it will run, but it ran on my balsa wood model. I will finish it up sometime today, and then we shall see. Although if it runs, I will just let it go and see how long it goes before friction slows it to a halt. And then it will be back to the drawing board to figure out the improvements. And again, I am not sure my plywood model will run with the golf balls I am using as weights. I may have to get some steel balls for the weight. If it DOES run with just golf balls, the steel balls will REALLY get it moving. But it may take me a while to get them delivered!! But by then I will have video posted for all to see.
re: Impact is the Key
I took a couple pictures, but haven't figured out how to post them. Didn't take a video yet because I realized I don't have the nuts to bolt my wheel onto the shaft now that it is done. It is a large shaft, and takes some big nuts. They are in my shop somewhere, but can't find them, so I need another trip to the store to get replacements, which will not happen until Monday. Ahhh well, at least the construction phase is completed. Now for the testing phase.
Here's a link on YOuTube
http://www.youtube.com/user/11Turion?feature=mhee
Oh, I have a cover plate that goes over this so the balls don't fall out, and one for the other side. I'm thinking about getting a big sheet of plastic and covering it so I can watch the balls move, but for right now I'll stick with the wood I already have. This is a 4' wheel, which is the largest I can get out of one sheet of plywood. Oops. Sorry. This isn't my 4' wheel. This is only 33". Just realized my larger one is over against the other wall
Here's a link on YOuTube
http://www.youtube.com/user/11Turion?feature=mhee
Oh, I have a cover plate that goes over this so the balls don't fall out, and one for the other side. I'm thinking about getting a big sheet of plastic and covering it so I can watch the balls move, but for right now I'll stick with the wood I already have. This is a 4' wheel, which is the largest I can get out of one sheet of plywood. Oops. Sorry. This isn't my 4' wheel. This is only 33". Just realized my larger one is over against the other wall
Last edited by 11Turion on Sat Jun 04, 2011 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
re: Impact is the Key
I have many, MANY projects in the works. I never quit on any of them. I just kind of rotate through them so I don't lose interest or lock my brain into one track on anything. Then I can come back to it with fresh eyes. And sometimes an entirely new perspective, depending on what I have read, heard, seen since the last time I worked on it. This is my full time "job" now.
Re: re: Impact is the Key
Don't worry about grinding to a halt. If any design makes more than one revolution and resets to its initial state then you've cracked it. The rest is simply engineering.11Turion wrote:I have no intention of patenting anything. If I ever find something that works, I'll be spreading it all over the internet in as many forums and locations as I can possibly find as fast as I possibly can. My concern is that because of friction, etc., my design might grind to a halt after some time. ...
If I were you I should try and rebuild the balsa wood model and have a video camera handy.
Who is she that cometh forth as the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terribilis ut castrorum acies ordinata?
re: Impact is the Key
That's not quite true about a device which makes one revolution and resets being the ultimate answer. There is at least one device I have seen which will make a complete rotation and reset, but eventually wind down because of friction losses. It was pendulum based. It is posted on YouTube, and I believe there was a link to it from this site at one time. Not sure if it's still active. So you have to be able to develop enough momentum to do more than just barely reset. I think that one ran for like ten minutes before it stopped.
For those interested in building these things. I needed some steel balls to use as my rolling weights, since I don't think my golf balls will be heavy enough. So this morning I got on line and started searching. I found a pinball repair place that had boxes full of them and let me have them for free, so now I have 32 steel balls to use as rolling weights in my wheel. Oh fun! I picked them up just a few minutes ago, and as soon as I grab food I will be down in the basement balancing my wheel and adding the steel balls to the mix. Maybe by this afternoon I will have some idea of whether this is going to work or not.
For those interested in building these things. I needed some steel balls to use as my rolling weights, since I don't think my golf balls will be heavy enough. So this morning I got on line and started searching. I found a pinball repair place that had boxes full of them and let me have them for free, so now I have 32 steel balls to use as rolling weights in my wheel. Oh fun! I picked them up just a few minutes ago, and as soon as I grab food I will be down in the basement balancing my wheel and adding the steel balls to the mix. Maybe by this afternoon I will have some idea of whether this is going to work or not.