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Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

 
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niente
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Hi all, I'm trying to collect together all clues regarding Bessler wheels.
I think it should be helpful to have all clues in a single document. Maybe I forgot some of them, so please complete this list if you think it is incomplete:

1. The wheel was not self-starting; it needed a push to get it moving. - Bessler
2. The wheel did not derive its power from wound springs or falling weights, as was common with automata and clockwork devices. - Bessler
3. The wheel had many moving weights inside, arranged with the purpose of keeping the wheel continually unbalanced. ? Bessler
4. Machine was set in motion by weights. - Bessler
5. Weights acted in pairs - Bessler
6. Weights gained force from their own swinging. - Bessler
7. Weights came to be placed together, arranged one against another. - Bessler
8. Weights applied force at right angles to the axis. - Bessler
9. Springs were employed, but not as detractors suggested. - Bessler
10. The machine's power was directly proportional to its diameter. - Bessler
11. Interior of the machine was a simple arrangement of weights and levers. - Prince Karl, Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel, eyewitness account
12. Weights were pierced in the middle and attached by connecting springs. - Acta Eridutorum, An Account of the Perpetuum Mobile of J. E. E. Orffyreus, 1715
13. Weights were heard hitting the side of the wheel going down. - many eyewitness accounts
14. Machine made scratching noises, as if parts or poles moved over one another. - many eyewitness accounts
15. Weights were attached to moveable or elastic arms on the periphery of the wheel. - Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account
16. Weights landed on slightly warped boards. - Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account
17. Weights were cylindrical. - Johann Christian Wolff, eyewitness account
18. About 8 weights fell during each revolution of the wheel, which took about 3 seconds. (wheel diameter ~ 12 feet) - Joseph Fischer, eyewitness account
19. "Unlike all other automata, such as clocks or springs, or other hanging weights which require winding up, or whose duration depends on the chain which attaches them, these weights, on the contrary, are the essential parts, and constitute the perpetual motion itself; since from them is received the universal movement which they must exercise so long as they remain out of the centre of gravity; and when they come to be placed together, and so arranged one against another that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the punctum quietus which they unceasingly seek in their wonderfully speedy flight, one or other of them must apply its weight at right angles to the axis, which in its turn must also move."
- Bessler, 1717
20. The wheel is an assembly of many parts all in motion for the sake of motion. It moves as rain drops drip or snowflakes fall. In this machine a hammer blows on an ordinary anvil; the Driver drives; the Runner runs; Seer sees; Buyer buys; the Shotgun Shoots and the Bow twangs. ? Bessler (Ramananda, "Dialogues at the Castle of Weissenstein")
21. Is it really a wheel? For it does not have a normal rim. Rim that you see is just to hide the mechanism. If I uncover it you would then ask whether this is really a wheel. My wheel revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind or springs. When my wheel seen sideways or full-face it is as bright as a peacock?s tail. It turns to the right and the left; it spins around in either direction, laden or empty. ? Bessler (Ramananda, "Dialogues at the Castle of Weissenstein")
22. The falling weights are the only source of power ? Bessler (Ramananda, "Dialogues at the Castle of Weissenstein")
23. Design of my machine is analogues to world system. I have put eight heavy weights in my machine, which represents eight planets of our world. The large axle of my machine represents the sun. Heavy weights in my machine encircle around the axle to form an elliptical path, in the similar manner, as planets encircle around the sun. Whilst moving around axle, they recede and come closer to the center. They balance against each other and impart motion to the wheel. ? Bessler (Ramananda, "Dialogues at the Castle of Weissenstein")
24. It works in layered parts but it fights force-loss-friction at all places possible. ? Bessler (Ramananda, "Dialogues at the Castle of Weissenstein")
25. The levers loaded with heavy weights as viewed from the side, may be compared to side views of many children playing with very heavy clubs among tall broken columns. The strongest of the children cannot lift the lightest of the clubs. Still, each child can swing (or you might call it "step" as it uses a club as a "leg") from the top of one broken column to the top of the next broken column by positioning his heavy club on the ground between the two close columns and holding on to the handle end to swing over to the top of the next column. Then he rotates the handle end of his club to maneuver it between his current column and his next intended column so that he can again "step" or swing a small angle over to the top of the next intended broken column. If the clubs are even heavier by being double-ended, then instead of rolling them to the next position, they may be alternatively transported between the columns by switching ends. A double club may be moved in seesaw fashion by leaning it against the current broken column that the child is on and rolling it over the top of the column (assuming that there is enough room for the child to stay on top of the column). The double club is pivoted with a circular motion with one end going up while the other end goes down. ? Bessler (Ramananda, "Dialogues at the Castle of Weissenstein")
26. When weights come to be placed together, they are so arranged that they can never obtain equilibrium, or the ?punctum quietus? which they unceasingly seek in their wondrous speedy flight. ? Bessler (Ramananda, "Dialogues at the Castle of Weissenstein")
27. During rotation, one can clearly hear the weights hitting against the wooden boards. I was able to observe these boards through a slit. They are slightly curved. - Professor Wolff
28. In 1719, Johann Bessler, under an assumed name of Orffyreus, published his treatise ?Perpetuum Mobile Triumphans " in which, inter alia, he claimed that he managed to create "a dead substance that is not just a self-moving mechanism , but may also be used for lifting weights and doing some kind of work".



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 10:47 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Certain researchers put a lot of hard work into gathering those clues.
You forgot to acknowledge and credit those sources.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 11:06 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Besides the fact that No.1 is wrong, I agree with coylo.

Isn't Ramananda, "Dialogues at the Castle of Weissenstein", information 'channeled' by some alien spirit medium? Cracks me up - lol


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:05 am    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

I did a Google search for Ramananda Bessler and found... http://orffyre.tripod.com/index.html

I've never seen this rather extensive Bessler site before. It will take me a while to read and evaluate it. I saw on one of the pages it has foot notes to Alden Parks and John Collins.

The sites home page counter currently has 957 hits, so it appears to be a rather new site devoted to Bessler.



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:26 am    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

The "Dialog at the castle" is a facinating piece of reading. I don't know how historically accurate it is but it's better than a good novel.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

1) is wrong in that the first two wheels were self-starting and only turned in one direction, while the second two needed a slight push before they accelerated to full speed. They could turn in either direction.

11) is quoted from Frank Edward's book and is ficticious as I have said many times on this board.

12) is an assumption by Wolff and not a fact.

13) Only one witness described this placement of the sound of falling weights.(Fischer von Erlach), not many.

15) an another assumption by Wolff and not a fact.

It seems obvious to me that Ramananda is quoting extensively from my book "Perpetual Motion; An Ancient Mystery Solved?" and although he does quote me as a reference he also quotes Alden Parks (although he calls him Elden) and frankly I would discount Alden Parks' ramblings as a recipe for failure for researching a solution to Bessler's wheel because it's a mixture of the hypothetical mixed with fact and seasoned with religious meanderings.

John Collins


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ken_behrendt
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:36 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Well, I visited Dr. Ramesh Menaria's website on Bessler and found myself rather impressed with it. It's obvious to me that he is in love with the subject and the site shows it. I'm also impressed with his academic credentials and wish he was a member of this Discussion Board. Although he is an inorganic chemist, his reasoning abilities could be useful here.

I think that I found this same site in late 2004 or early 2005, so, if that is the case, it's not that new. I remember the garish colors he used on his pages and text and how my eyes ached after trying to read through some of his material.

Overall, I would recommend his site...but take occasional breaks from reading to avoid severe eye strain!

I'm sure that the Bessler literature experts on this board will take exception with some of the material he presents, yet, I think his site gives a good overview of the topic.

I found this passage particularly interesting:

Quote:
Count Karl made a promise to Orffyreus that he would never disclose the secret to anyone until Orffyreus would get his reward. Orffyreus permitted him to have a glimpse of the interior, but how long we do not know, we can only speculate that Orffyreus must have imposed some time limit to watch the mechanism. Whatever be the duration, Karl was intelligent enough to learn the working mechanism of the machine at a glance therefore he himself was satisfied as to the validity of Orffyreus claim and did not bother what the rest world accused Orffyreus of being a fraud. Having learnt the secret, Karl rushed to his residence to write an account of what he had seen. Count described an intricate system of weights and strings. When the oiled cloth was removed and left nude wrote Count Karl, he found himself gazing upon a very simple arrangement of weights and levers. He never disclosed the secret what he had seen. However, Karl did state to his ministers that he believed the wheel was a true perpetual motion machine and he was amazed that no one had invented a similar machine before Bessler. He also stated that machine was so simple and easy to understand that a "carpenters boy" could build one after seeing inside the wheel.


I would love to get my mits on the volume of Karl's diary that contains the entries he made after being allowed to view the Kassel wheel's interior!


ken



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On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:41 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

If you find it I'll give you $20.00 and a tuna on rye for it!
fAt


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:16 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

I'll pass on the tuna sandwich and, if I do ever find Karl's diary, it will probably cost about $20 USD per softbound copy if I can get permission from his estate to have it published!

ken


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:26 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Ok, I'll throw in a giant bag of cheetos and a low mileage 1987 VW.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:28 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

What about point 21? Isn't opposite to Bessler's claim that machine contained two wheels, one inside another?

Quote:
21. Is it really a wheel? For it does not have a normal rim. Rim that you see is just to hide the mechanism. If I uncover it you would then ask whether this is really a wheel. My wheel revolves, but without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind or springs.
Orffyreus


Quote:
Around the firmly placed horizontal axis is a rotating disc (or lower or narrow cylinder) which resembles a grindstone. This disc can be called the principle piece of my machine. Accordingly, this wheel consists of an external wheel (or drum) for raising weights which is covered with stretched linen.
Orffyreus


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John Collins






PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

I agree with you Ken that Dr. Ramesh Menaria's website has an impressive amount of information. But the colors do give me migraine after a few minutes!


The text colored red in your quote "Having learnt the secret, Karl rushed to his residence to write an account of what he had seen. Count described an intricate system of weights and strings. When the oiled cloth was removed and left nude wrote Count Karl, he found himself gazing upon a very simple arrangement of weights and levers." comes directly from Frank Edward's book 'Strangest of All" and is pure fiction so imo it's best ignored.

Karl had two diaries and I've read both. One was a court diary and contains little of interest to us here, and the other is more of an account book containing such things as payments to Bessler for various things expenses etc. I know you are longing to discover more information about Bessler's wheel in some hidden document but from what I know of Karl, I am certain that he would have kept his word and not revealed anything either by word of mouth or on paper. In fact everything you need to know is already published.

Madmax, I do not think that Bessler implied deliberately or accidentally that his wheel consisted of two wheels. He was merely describing the external appearance of his wheel - and anyway I don't think that he would have given such a clue were it true.

John Collins


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:29 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

Madmax...

There was only one wheel being described. Bessler depicts it as similar in shape to a grindstone. But, when he does that he is describing the outer drum that contained and carried the inner weight shifting mechanisms. There is no separate, second smaller wheel inside of the drum and attached to the portion of the axle inside of the drum.


John...

I guess I got excite over that passage allegedly describing what Count Karl saw for nothing...how frustrating, I was kind of hoping it would be true and that maybe Edwards found something we do not know about yet (but, hopefully soon will!).

Another one of the problems in conducting Bessler research, aside from the language barrier, is having to reach back across almost 3 centuries. The best that we can do, literaturewise, that I can imagine is to either find some previously unknown Bessler pamphlets, letters, etc. or somehow decode some secret message describing the mechanism he used in his writings. I just pessimistically suspect that IF such a description is, in fact, encoded into his writings, then the code he used would be something only he would ever be able to decipher.

That code could be literally any of hundreds of possible ones. For example, maybe the numbers in the illustrations correspond to certain words in certain the accompanying text or in certain Bible verses. Maybe the number of letters in each line of the text form a coded message that is then deciphered by finding the corresponding word in another portion of the text. The possibilities seem almost endless to me.

Anyway, thanks for verifying the authenticity of that passage I found on Dr. Menaria's site.


ken


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Joel Wright
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

I know I asked this question before John,but now that you brought up the account book Karl keeped.Is there any itemized entrys,as concerned with materials or tools,Bessler may have requested.I believe when I ask before,you responded that this was something that needed more investigation if you could find the time.Anything new in this area.



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel Reply with quote Report Post to Admin

John Collins wrote:
I agree with you Ken that Dr. Ramesh Menaria's website has an impressive amount of information. But the colors do give me migraine after a few minutes!


if you will highlight the page like for cut and past it is easier to read



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