Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

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SeaWasp
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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by SeaWasp »

I think that those round ball weights are swinging in & out of the page, ie, an arced range of travel in the z coordinate. Perhaps they are geared to rotate in pairs, and on opposite sides to each other?

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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by ken_behrendt »

SeaWasp...

It's indeed difficult to understand exactly what is supposed to be happening in MT143 due to the strange perspective of the drawing. Then there's that weird extra mechanism on the top of the illustration which seems to be an enlargement of one of the mechanisms that is located between the two parallel arms. It looks like the extra mechanism on top of the device was added as a close up view of the two smaller mechanisms.

In any event, it appears that this device is not meant to rotate, but, rather, to rock up and down and that, somehow, the mechanisms between the parallel arms respond to this motion. In fact, it might not even be a perpetual motion device at all, but might be intended to demonstrate some principle of balance...but, exactly what that principle is is not obvious to me...


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by rlortie »

Ken and Sea Wasp,

You been asleep at the wheel or speeding reading again. Ken is stating almost word for word what I posted two days ago on another thread.

And yes we are once again back on the "Z" plane, 143 is is a prime example of my previous input regarding the hammers in the toy falling past the side of the anvil and not hitting upon it. I have made two such posts and neither raised an eyebrow.
Jon,

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So from your hunch it sounds like you are saying the drawing with the 12 pointed star ( I think is 137)was the last before Bessler had his breakthrough into pm.


I would consider MT #143, one that never seems to get recognized or discussed on this forum. Bessler said that #138 held a clue, and if you look at #143 you will make the connection. It has weights in pairs that work within pairs and shows how the hammer toy action is used by two levers. Bessler also stated that he could add or remove to the number of weights and levers.

Now add this to #137 and you will find 12 points connected by 24 lines or 12 continuous lines. Attach the weights in such manner that each set is connected to the next lever of the proceeding pair. This give you the scissor jack or storks bill effect. This in turn shows reasoning for the depicted Jacobs ladder.

Have I hit on something here that answers Jim_Mich Pair of pairs, or am I creating a hornets nest.

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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by SeaWasp »

Ralph.. I may have missed your post recently. Life has been very hectic for me at the moment. I have a new arrival, (my first baby) due next week and I have been rather busy trying to prepare the house for her! So yeah, I guess I have been asleep at the wheel!

I have also been working on my own pair of pairs idea so I guess I have also been a little "silent" on some aspects of this.
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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by SeaWasp »

MT-143 has contained within it, a, "why didn't I think of that?" question! And it's almost jumping out of the page when you examine it! Perhaps others will also perceive what I have. And yes, it has everything to do with the Z-axis rotation.

Here is something I thought that I would share...

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Now, here we have some old Gears as perhaps Bessler would have had at his disposal in his era.. I thought that the connection to the children playing with clubs among the colonnade or broken columns quote from his shower of words described the Gear mechanism quite accurately! Perhaps if we could shortlist a collection of parts we can come a little closer to the correct mechanism?

Food for thought anyway!

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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by ken_behrendt »

Ralph wrote:
I would consider MT #143, one that never seems to get recognized or discussed on this forum. Bessler said that #138 held a clue, and if you look at #143 you will make the connection. It has weights in pairs that work within pairs and shows how the hammer toy action is used by two levers. Bessler also stated that he could add or remove to the number of weights and levers.
Your "explanation" of the MT143 mechanism still did not make its operation understandable to me...


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by SeaWasp »

After having reviewed MT-143 more thoroughly, I have come to the conclusion that the Z-Axis may not be as important as I once realised! There is another underlying concept contained within it though. Which has perhaps an even more important idea.

I cannot elaborate any further at this stage though, as this would impinge a little on my current ideas.


Ralph.. From here:
Now add this to #137 and you will find 12 points connected by 24 lines or 12 continuous lines. Attach the weights in such manner that each set is connected to the next lever of the proceeding pair. This give you the scissor jack or storks bill effect. This in turn shows reasoning for the depicted Jacobs ladder.
I am presuming that your talking about connecting up the hammer toys in sequence so that they resemble a scissor mechanism? If you have, then I have contemplated this idea, but I wasn't sure how to apply this within the wheel!

Something drew me towards the weighted leverage somehow being able to lift itself upwards once given a little shove! But I havn't been able to test this out and confirm the dynamics!

I also gathered that this would be a problem on the other side of the wheel. So I havn't pursued it any further!

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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by Michael »

Hi Spiros,
Bessler says there were no gears in his wheel though. Just curious, what do you think of M.T. 27?
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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by SeaWasp »

Michael.. I havn't really contemplated MT-27 much! I'll look into it and see what I can make of it! It does look interesting though! It would require a secondary shifting mechanism to perhaps get it to work? I'll have to get back to you on that one!

In regards to the cogs & gears, do you have a reference anywhere to verify that? I just thought that the graphical depiction of the old world cogs & gears resembled too much his reference to the children playing with heavy clubs among the collonade etc.. quote! Perhaps he used the mechanism in a different way?
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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by Michael »

It's in apologia where he says, no gears. He also says no weights but the general concensus is he was refering to clock weights.
If your looking for opinions mine regarding the columns is the children with heavy clubs are the weights, etc. the playing is swinging free and the columns are the columns or stand holding the wheel.
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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by rlortie »

Michael,

Bringing attention to MT 27, may prove to be detrimental to your on-going concepts. But where as you have done so, I believe that one should back up and first study MT 24, 25, 26, and then scrutinize 27. replicate the two units shown for a total of eight.

I hesitate to agree with SeaWasp on the need for a secondary shifter mechanism.

The "D" straps or cords are going to change in length as they go from inverse to converse. Looks like a good place to use bungee straps.

Ralph
Last edited by rlortie on Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by rlortie »

Spiros,

My input regarding MT 143 was just that, "input" I have not spent any time on it other than to comment about it's comparison to the hammer toy's in a "Z" plane.

I image it with the horizontal levers with one above and one below the axle, The weights fall out and the weights fall in. Why two and not just one weight some may ask. Because the two distribute the force on the vertical rod that shifts back and forth, where as one centered vertically would bind on the shaft and show little force upon the horizontal levers.

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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by rlortie »

I mentioned MT 137 on this thread back on March 4th, ever since then I have been thinking about it.

Having spent the last three days working on a member design, this morning I through in the towel and considered it a loser. I then stripped my open face MDO 39" test disk that is fully accessible.

After stripping I found that I had the material for an eight point MT 137 using 14 gauge perf. flat bar and 3/8" nuts and bolts. Installed it into guides made of 1-1/8" ID flanged bearings.

I found the results quite amazing, first thing I noticed is that I had a pair of weights working with another pair, two sets of two totaling eight spokes Adding another set would then duplicate MT 137.

It fulfills the the action of the Storks bill or scissor jack, The three o'clock weight is fully extended perpendicular to the axis. By the time it hits 4:30 it has shifted the next two out. Kind of like knocking over a row of domino's. The gravity shifting of the spokes creates an inclined plane. Which lifts/shifts two weights from one. When one weight shifts, the linkage causes three more to shift.

I think I am going to play with this for a while. I need to make some refinements, as I simply threw it together using readily available material.

I now see the reason for Bessler's depiction having such a large axle, the scissor linkage rides upon it.

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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by pstroud »

Ralph,

Sounds promising. Good Luck with the testing. Looking forward to hearing more.

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re: Collection of clues about Bessler wheel

Post by ME »

Are there more high resolution pictures available of MT 142 and MT 143?
(a rescan at 45° would also help a bit)
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