How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still protect your intellectual idea?

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snkellis
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How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still protect

Post by snkellis »

After more than a decade of experiments.. I'm probably just deluding myself yet again... but let's just assume a clockwise rotation and the following checklist will create a working wheel.

1). Move a 4oz weight upward 4 inches at the top of the wheel rotation within 10 degrees of rotation using a mechanism - (built tested working)

2). Move the weight towards the center at the bottom of the rotation the same distance withing 15 degrees of rotation using the same mechanical mechanism (built... Tested and working)

3). Maintain the unbalance during the non moving phases... ( Tested and working)

4). Maintain a rotational speed of 22+ rpm. (Forthcoming?)


The problem is... The mechanism must be able to run in three different modes... That I am able to enforce manually for testing each phase.... But not automated. I've been stuck before but have eventually figured things out, but after 6 months, I'm stumped. I need a transmission ( for lack of a better term) that will regulate the speed of the mechanism without sapping it's power


And before someone asks the mechanism is such that splitting it function into multiple mechanism is not possible unless you can pass matter through other matter.
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

Post by ME »

As long as you can make 1,2 and 3 happen then I guess that 4 should not be a problem.
Perhaps, instead of moving mass through matter, you could move the force through matter.

How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still protect your intellectual idea?
Point 1. Basically like you did;
Point 2. No NDA will protect you against point 3;
Point 3. To remember: Greed is an evil root - Bessler-
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
snkellis
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

Post by snkellis »

Greed so so very true. I guess I'm as guilty as well, I'd like to see something for all the thought.. work and time I've put into this if this works. But I'm not foolish enough to think I have all the answers yet and that this will ever get completed and produced without alot more effort by more than just myself. So here goes me ... Explaining how I got where I am. I've build rather complex
designs, both large and small, that resulted in various degrees of failure. My original thoughts were to keep taking the positive results, adding them together to make a complete picture... If a positive movement worked... I'd integrate it into a design that was positive where one was negative. In those first 5 or so years... All I found was the more complex... The more net gain of energy was wasted through friction. So I stopped... And started looking at why things moved the way they did... the math behind it. I personally believe you have to look at and include all the forces in play...not just gravity if a solution is ever to be found. Laws of physics apply.. no need to create new ones. I don't believe there is any "primary" mover as Bessler describes... but a combination of forces working in tangent to create a whole picture. CF, (both types), Gravity... Momentum... Acceleration.. all play a part in my design and I believe it is simple enough to allow weights to move when I want them to and prevent them from moving into a position where forces balance out and stall the device where I don't. Why go through the details? Maybe it helps someone else figure things out down the road.
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

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One thing my many experiments has shown me is weights never did quite what I expected them to do when they were placed a a greater radius from the center. I understood what CF was... I didn't think it was significant enough to impact the end result I was looking for... I was wrong. So I started to look at what could be used to counteract... And I'm a bit ashamed at how long it took me to realize I didn't want to, I wanted to use it instead. If a wheel is spinning... It is much harder to raise a weight at the 6 o'clock position then it is at the 12 o'clock position. Why? At 12 o'clock cf is in the opposite direction of gravity... Or subtractive... At 6, it's additive. For example a four pound weight ... 8 ft from the center of rotation spinning at Besslers 22 rpm... Experiences an outward CF of a little over 5 lbs/ft. and a gravitational pull of 4lbf/ft. This means you don't have to do anything to raise the weight at the 12 o'clock position.. if you keep a minimum radius of ~8 ft, except let it go where it wants to. The negative side of this... A weight of 4 pounds at a 12 ft radius you want to raise.. now has a cf of approximately 7.2 lbf/ft.. plus the four pound weight gravity adds.
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

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So how can you (at the 6 o'clock position) counter act the combined forces of gravity and CF now that you've gotten the weight to raise? You have to think from a perspective that you've already done so... And what's happening while you do it. The "wheel" now has a net gain in radius on the positive side and a net loss of radius on the negative... Then causes the wheel to accelerate gaining momentum... And increase cf as well...making it more difficult. The answer is simple .. Prevent the weight from going where is want to go,. You do this by counteracting Centrifugal fource by effectively increasing centripetal force... We've all seen the designs with a ramp on one side of the wheel... Bessler even said it had promise... If friction wasn't so high. The ramp... In my opinion was to use momentum... To raise the weight (effectively increasing the centripetal force pushing the weight closer to the center). So... I asked how can we do that... Without so much friction. Or no friction if possible. Centripetal force... On a spinning wheel is the force that holds it from flying off and no matter your design... You have it. Some use a cable... Chains.. some rods and levers. Ramps increase centripetal force by restricting the weights movement towards the axis using momentum... I propose we can do the same thing, by shortening the leash that binds the weight to the axis. here's how:. Configure your weight s so it is allowed to slide outward and inward of its own accord... then introduce a secondary wheel inside the first... Attach the weight via a string... Cable.. chain.. (pick your appropriate material) to the inner wheel along it's outside edge. Now.. imagine that inner wheel spinning freely being pulled by your weight as it circles the wheel.. now stop the inner wheel as it reaches the 5:30 position. The weight... With it's acceleration.. has enough momentum to wind itself around the inner wheel. The diameter of the inner wheel ... Large enough to eat up the 4 ft we are moving the object towards the center within 20 degrees of rotation of the outer wheel. Momentum will do this... I've tested and verified it. Remember we want to maintain a minimum of 8 ft from the axis so cf will still raise the weight at the 12 o'clock position. Another important thing to note... As you wind the weight around the inner wheel.. velocity increases. Much like a figure skater does when they pull their arms in while spinning
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

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I've been told I'm not the easiest person to understand as I explain things... I skip logical steps that I assume are basic... But they are basic to me.. because I've been thinking about something for days... Weeks before I'll speak on it. If I'm not clear, I'll try to correct as questions arise... That said... We now have an inner wheel that at the 12 position needs to spin freely allowing our weight to use cf to locate itself on the outer edge of the wheel.. needs to stop at ~ 5:30 and allow the weight to wrap itself around it, thus moving the weight towards the axis. If the inner wheel is allowed to spin freely after this point, the weight would unwind completely... And would be counter productive... If we maintain it's stopped position, it acts as a break and will literally (in my case) tear your build apart. Instead... One of two things needs to happen, either the inner wheel must spin in concert with the outer one until the twelve o'clock position and then be allowed to spin freely... Or, the inner wheel should be allow to spin freely again and the weight must locked into it's position until the 12 o'clock position ( I believe this would cause the rope (cable / string to tangle and the first option to be ideal) . What I'm missing.. is a design that will allow me to regulate the movement of that inner wheel. Stop it... Restrict it.. and let it free. When I want it to. As I mentioned... My latest build flew apart... (Much smaller scale then mentioned here) but I will attempt to rebuild this week so I can post pictures.
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

Post by Tarsier79 »

Great out of the box thinking!

My initial thought would be do do it electronically. Use sensors to engage locking or clutch mechanisms at specific times. The advantage of this, is the actuators are powered separately, so you get a theoretical best case scenario, energy wise. The main thing you need to do is test the function of the 3 modes together.

If you connected the opposed top and bottom weights, your wheel would only need 2 modes? CF would assist the top weight at the same time you pulled in the bottom weight.

Alternatively mechanical has some advantages over electrical. Engines use timing chains and cams to open and close valves at the correct time. Keep it as simple as possible. Also if you are going to be decelerating and accelerating your inner/adjacent wheel, it needs to be "weightless".

We know just having a ramp doesn't work. We have seen it in numerous builds, my favorite being one of Preston Stroud's. The reason is the energy it takes to lift the weight at the bottom is taken directly from the rotation of the wheel. Does your design overcome this? From your description, it doesn't sound like it does.

Good luck.
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

Post by ME »

Greed so so very true.
The opposite power of Greed is Trust.
The latter is only a 'power' when you can recognize and understand the former.
I've been told I'm not the easiest person to understand as I explain things... I skip logical steps that I assume are basic... But they are basic to me.. because I've been thinking about something for days... Weeks before I'll speak on it.
It is never easy to explain a physical concept with mere words: It triggers everyone's imagination or confusion.
A mental image is what you have, pictures are what the rest of us need.
What I'm missing.. is a design that will allow me to regulate the movement of that inner wheel. Stop it...
Option 1: You could gear your innerwheel with variable teeth so it gets a wobbling speed.
Option 2: Maybe it is as simple as putting your innerwheel off-axis.
Option 3: Maybe your wheel could have a specific shape and/or an attached weight. Not pendulum enough to rotate due to friction*, and pendulum enough to withstand the counter force of slingshotting that weight up high. *) or have a pin delimited sector
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

Post by snkellis »

The Inner wheel was designed like a bicycle wheel.. spokes and an outer rim. As minimal as I could make it.
The weights own movement and rotation of the outer wheel winds the weight around the inside wheel, via momentum, so yes some would be lost.. gravity assist is there but minimal. the timing would put the upper weight in the optimal position before the bottom weight makes it to the inner wheel... In other words.. yes some power loss does happen but its offset by the optimal position of the upper weight... And the weights desire (probably not the best word to describe) to increase velocity as it winds. Think tetherball as it winds around it's pole. Is that enough? I don't think we can know until I get the center wheel working. I've toyed with the idea of connecting the weights and was a future enhancement / experiment to see if it improves the movement that I'd planned.

Another thing to consider... I honestly believe if I were to stop the inner wheel at a 4:30 / 5:00 position the net acceleration gained is minimal at that point, and less momentum would be lost. I've done the math in a previous post.. the greatest amount of power gained with an unbalanced wheel occurs in less than 40% of it's rotation.

As far as electronics to control the inner wheel, I'm afraid I don't have the skill to do so..
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Re: re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still

Post by ME »

Tarsier79 wrote:CF would assist the top weight at the same time you pulled in the bottom weight.
At best the centrifugal force at the top counters the centrifugal force at the bottom. So that would not be helpful.
But they don't counter. Because you need to raise both weights. Thus the bottom weight goes at a larger radius than the top weight. So the bottom weight has more CF to overcome than the top.
Marchello E.
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

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Correct... The CF of the weight at the top is enough to overcome gravity ... And friction, not much left after that. Letting it travel further outward will increase it's cf... But it will make it even more difficult to rein it back when it reaches the lower regions. I posted the CF difference above.. 5.1 at the top.. vs 7.2 at the bottom. I believe... Not proven, the CF at the bottom actually assists in the winding of the weight... Push down on a balloon resting on a table... It can't go down so the movement is forced sideways. The weight is tethered... It can't go down... Inertia keeps it from going backwards.. the path of least resistance.. forces the weight to keep winding itself. In my last build I stopped the weight a the 6 o'clock position, it wound itself upto the inner wheel.. and ripped the larger wheel off it's axis when it ran out of string and came to a jarring halt... Hey, I never said I could build quality.. 😒
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

Post by Tarsier79 »

Dont think that is news to anybody ME. You don't have to always explain everything for most people to understand the interactions.
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

Post by ME »

?
Did I misinterpret your own suggestion?
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

Post by Tarsier79 »

Nope. Just didn't think it needed explaining.
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re: How does one ask for collaboration.. help and still prot

Post by snkellis »

Let me digress a bit here... And discuss the toys page. Something that .. if used differently can lead to wonderful things (in fewer words). I dont believe Bessler was telling us modifying these objects would make a wheel. I believe he was trying to get people to look at how these objects work... What happens to forces and how they react to different forces. The spinning top... What keeps it standing upright when it should fall down? CF? What.. happens when using the lazy tongs as intended..? Dual force on the handles show that force will react towards the path of least resistance? Jacob's ladder? A change in the center of gravity can create a cascade of movement? The two guys with the hammer? For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction? He wasn't about to give away his secret.. this was a book designed to instruct / teach. Could he have meant it as a way of teaching these concepts? I believe the only hint on that page is this.. you must take all of these things into consideration if you want to have a chance at figuring it out.
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