springs

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Is it possible to accomplish besslers mechanism also without springs? if bessler used springs were these necessary for machine's continual movement?

Poll ended at Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:42 am

the mechanism can operate also without springs
11
55%
bessler used springs to keep the thinking away from the solution
2
10%
springs are urgently necessary for the function.
7
35%
 
Total votes: 20

jonnynet
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springs

Post by jonnynet »

I am unsure whether there's a senseful using of springs for the bessler wheel so I want to know how you're thinking about it.
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barksalot
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re: springs

Post by barksalot »

I think springs were not needed in the one directional wheels, but may have been used to improve its operation.
They may have been necessary in the bi-directional ones.
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re: springs

Post by jimmyjj »

The way i feel at the moment is that springs were a necessary component of both the one way and two way wheels this is probably because the design i am working on at the moment incorporates springs i am not however quite sure as to what form of spring he may have used currently i am employing coil springs other forms of spring eg. air, bow string may also possibly be used.
The line from Apologia "the shotgun shoots, the bow twangs" also intrigues me other translations such as "the box shoots, the curve quickens" or "the can shoots the elbow snaps" or "the jack fires, the bow twangs" or the gun,can,bushing shoots, the bow/arc/crescent shaped object accelerates" all seem to me to point to a spring loaded firing mechanism.
Bessler also seems to suggest that a wheel using weights to shift weights will not work, i have given up for the time being trying to defy newton hence springs ......and magnets may perhaps be the answer.
Of course next week may be a different story.

Jimmy
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re: springs

Post by jim_mich »

I feel quit certain that Bessler used springs. He stated that he used springs but NOT in the traditional windup mode. So his springs must have been used in the oscillation mode.

First a little background. Bessler repaired pocket watches. Pocket watches have two types of springs. The main spring supplies power to run the watch. Bessler stated that his wheel did NOT have this type of spring. A second type of spring allows a pendulum weight to oscillate back and forth. This type of spring is usually a coiled spring, sometimes called a hairspring. This second type of spring allows the pendulum weight to oscillate at a frequency that is dependent upon the strength of the spring whereas a simple pendulum oscillates at a speed dependent on rod length and gravity force. Why did he use springs? The answer is simple. A spring will accelerate a weight in a first direction and then the weight's momentum causes tension in the spring and the weight decelerates and accelerates back in the opposite direction. If the spring's tension is strong then the oscillation is quick. The weight can move from a first location to a second location MUCH FASTER than by using only gravity and inertia.

This brings up a second problem of controlling the speed of movement. Every watch (or clock) uses some type of escapement. The escapement latches or holds the movement of the swinging weight so that the main spring uncoils at a certain speed. Bessler would need his weights to oscillate between two locations on his wheel, one nearer the axle and the other farther from the axle. This oscillation must be synchronized to the wheel's rotation. An escapement would be required to latch and unlatch in such a manner that the weights move suddenly between the two positions at the right time.

Normally a hairspring has equal tension at both ends of its swing. A pocket watch uses a hairspring to save space whereas Bessler could have used any shape of spring. The oscillating weight would swing farther from neutral in one direction than the other so the spring would have excess spring tension in one direction to lift the weights a little higher. This excess tension would come from centrifugal force helping the weight to swing. Centrifugal force changes depending on how the weight is swinging. With a combination of wheel rotation and the weight swinging a first direction verses a second direction, CF can help or hinder the weights movement. Centrifugal force is greater at a larger radius and less as a smaller radius.

In review a spring causes a weight to oscillate between two locations on a wheel. The oscillation is much faster than gravity alone can produce due to the spring's tension. The path that the weight swings causes centrifugal force to be minimized or maximized so as to help the weight swing.

There is most likely a pair of weights interconnected such that CF is pulling on one or the other of the two weights whenever the wheel rotates. The CF only pulls at the beginning of the swing and is very weak at the end of the swing due to the way the weight swings and wheel's rotation. One weight has strong CF when the other has weak CF. This causes a swinging back and forth and the two weights never reach equilibrium. They are always oscillating back and forth on the spring's tension. Escapement latches keeps the weight's swinging synchronized to the wheel rotation so that the wheel is continuously out of balance.

I believe very strongly that this is the most likely and most logical solution.

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re: springs

Post by digitaljez »

I am currently thinking that if Bessler mentioned something then it was definitely not in the wheel (Except Apologia, which says 'without springs'). At least not as part of the driving force.
For example, if the two way wheel was two back-to-back devices, sprung catches may have been used to disable the one not in use but were not an essential part of the driving mechanism.
Since his statement is the only reason to believe that springs were used, option two should read "bessler said he used springs...".
So I could choose option one - but does the fact he mentioned them make him guilty of trying to mislead ? I have no reason to think that he was being sneaky - someone had suggested it was clockwork and he just gave an honest answer.
It can not be option three - or my current avenue of exploration is a dead end.
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re: springs

Post by ken_behrendt »

I have been consistently suggesting that springs are critical to the functioning of Bessler's wheels since I joined this board last year. Even though I can not yet claim to have found his secret mechanism, I conceive of it as consisting of discrete, mechanically isolated mechanisms each of which must contain two or more weighted levers whose motion is controlled by a spring. Thus, currently, I see each mechanism as consisting solely of weights, levers, springs, and stops and nothing else is needed to make it work.

During a single wheel rotation, each mechanism's springs would alternately stretch, contract, stretch, and contract again as they moved the CG of the weights in an particular mechanism first away from the wheel's axle on its descending side and then back toward the axle on the wheel's ascending side. The springs would allow energy to be stored during part of a mechanism's motion around the axle and then released during a different part of the rotation. The result is a self-adjusting mechanism that, when all of the mechanisms are considered, keeps the composite CG of all of the weights in the design constantly located on the wheel's descending side so as to achieve chronic imbalance.

As a clockmaker, Bessler would have been well acquainted with the various types of springs used in clocks. However, oddly enough, very few such spring activated mechanisms are shown in Maschinen Tractate. Why? I suspect that, in order to guard his design, he purposely excluded mechanisms using springs so that other rival inventors would not start thinking about using them too.


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
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re: springs

Post by Fletcher »

OR .. he realized that springs (in whatever guise) are conservative & linear. That means, of & by themselves, they can only be used to store PE thru compression or extension or twisting torque & then release the PE when unlatched. Now, that may seem like a good scenario to be useful but the act of storing & releasing that PE by gravity alone (no latches) means that a lever or weight must be brought into play to provide the compressive force. This is directly related to the angle from the vertical that the acting weight or lever can apply its force & in doing so that weight or lever must lose height lowering the wheels CoG in the process. The same applies when releasing the spring (they balance each other out), unless it is latched & released or you can design a variable spring that isn't linear.

Alternatively when a latched spring is released it creates a reactionary force in the wheel that must be compensated for or engineered out of the equation.

IMO, the best possible use of springs would be in the use & taming of CF's, however that seems unlikely given Bessler's wheel performance characteristics, especially at startup, so at best they were an ancillary & not the main means of moving his wheels.
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re: springs

Post by jonnynet »

thank you very much for your thoughts. up to now I never had an idea how I could employ springs useful so my next concept don't use any springs as always. the shown device would block when you try to rotate, it is rather an example of the concept (partially based on the allegation in my signature!). can we find a way to keep the frame in position?
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near the solution?
near the solution?
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re: springs

Post by ken_behrendt »

jonnynet...

I'm starting to get a deja vu feeling "all over again" after viewing what you attached. It reminds me a lot of Sanjay's "gift" to the world that we expended much bandwidth on several months ago.

Can you give us a description of how your design is supposed to work?


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
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re: springs

Post by rlortie »

It may look similar to Sanjay's, but a closer look say's it is not.

Here we have the drive weights pendulum hung on the outer wheel, but the inner is carrying the weight.

The approach is not new and is similar to one that Claudio and I discussed before he got the boot!

As for keeping the frame in position, I suggest an offset journal on the axle with a counter weight to hold it at a preset angle. As to whether I think it is a viable idea, I currently withhold my comments.

Ralph
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John Collins
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re: springs

Post by John Collins »

I'm inclined to think that Bessler used springs as part of the mechanisms but that it wasn't essential. Those who actually build will probably understand better, what I am describing here; it is not easy, but here goes.

When, for instance, you have a jointed lever and it operates through the full range of movement possible, there is a position at one end of the range where it almost locks and it means that any action or reaction you desire it to manifest is delayed or stopped. I find that a suitable spring placed in the crook of the joint encourages the action you require.

When the lever folds it compresses the spring but when the lever unfolds the spring encourages an earlier action than would have happened if the spring was not present. The lack of a spring in my own models usually means that I have to limit the range of movement available to me, in other words the folding lever cannot be allowed to fold as much as I would like it to.

Does this make sense to anyone?

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re: springs

Post by rlortie »

John,

Being a builder and not one to use simm programs I can relate to what you are stating.

I believe you will find relevant material regarding this in Prestons thread found on my inactive Blog. And for what it is worth I now agree with you that we did not need another group to keep up with.

IMO springs were not used. My reason being that a spring must be attached to something that will create tension. Or one could use the term pinned to the wheel. If it is pinned to the wheel then any force applied will become a physical part of the wheels make up.

I believe the levers in Johann's wheels where of one piece and no springs were required. I believe that the assumed eye witness report of a spring was Bessler dropping the weight and lever after attaching them together.

Ralph
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re: springs

Post by jonnynet »

ken,

despite of my limited english knowledge I'll try to describe the operating principle of my design. as you can see clearly on the picture the big wheel acts as an internal geared ring. the inner frame is shaped as a toothed wheel and shall keep all weights (gray colored) always on the right of their axles. to do that the toothed frame interlocks with the big wheel at the outerst right side. if the device shall work as wished, the inner frame must rotate at big wheel's speed but because of its less count of cogs it cannot do so.

I hope this description brings more perspicuity about the machine's operation.
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re: springs

Post by LustInBlack »

JonnyNet !

Looks like we thought about the same thing..

When you said your device locks because of the teeth number, it reminds me of my wheel ..

I've found a way to "unlock" it .. Friction.

But my wheel is different, I'll PM you with more info.


About the spring question . I believe they are used to push against something to connect; as friction would suggest ..
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re: springs

Post by ken_behrendt »

jonnynet...

I'm still confused about how the inner wheel with the pins on its edge is supposed to stay in position as shown in your attached image. It would seem that in order for the weights on the inner wheel to cause the outer wheel to rotate, the inner wheel would have to drop. But, the inner wheel would also have to rise to remain in place and this would then prevent it from applying any force to the outer wheel.


ken
On 7/6/06, I found, in any overbalanced gravity wheel with rotation rate, ω, axle to CG distance d, and CG dip angle φ, the average vertical velocity of its drive weights is downward and given by:

Vaver = -2(√2)πdωcosφ
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