2010 and nothing is going to happen.

[nicbordeaux]

A few members of the forum have announced major breakthroughs in tech we cant even imagine are going to be "released" and render the search for the gravity engine as redundant as a dodo.

No way, nothing is going to happen, the price of oil will fluctuate, a few places will get nuked, kind of business as usual. Many GM crops will prove to have for various reasons lower yields than ordinary, but ordinary will drop in yield because of genetic pollution in the field. (Yeah, sue me Monsanto, no hassle).

So the race for the G engine is still on. Furthermore the solution when somebody gets it and publishes it will be laughably simple. And to add insult to injury, the power output of a well thought out device will be high enough to justify building the things.

So the only thing that will happen in 2010 is a working gravity motor (meaning a wheel which will do 360°, a pendulum which can reset, a seesaw which will do several cycles...)

Interesting times.

[iacob alex]

Hi Nic!

Thinking about your expression "...a pendulum which can reset...",I like to add ,to be more explicit :"a pendular equivalent arrangement ,which can reset itself...".

This can the first image-concept,in my opinion ,to develop and test.

All the best! / Alex

[Fletcher]

If a pendulum can reset to the same height it started from each half cycle then that can quickly be turned into a full 360 degree wheel rotation that doesn't require change of direction.

Simply let the pendulum go in the upside down position [pivot below & before of after 12 o'cl, CW or CCW] - let it swing down & up again.

IF there is excess energy available in your setup to cover frictional losses & do some work it should probably give the pendulum more velocity & thus extra momentum going over 12 o'cl [this would apply to an ordinary oscillating pendulum as well achieving starting height].

That means whilst there won't be extra height gained [i.e. greater Pe of position achieved because it's rotary] there will be a surplus of Ke since it will have speed over the top & it started from a dead stop i.e. zero Ke & max Pe starting conditions - therefore a net gain in Total Energy is the result, some available to be bled off to do mechanical work.

[John Collins]

2010 Nick, and yes, the solution will be laughably simple.

But you seem to be saying, 'no, nothing will happen', and then in the last paragraph 'yes it will'?

JC

[nicbordeaux]

Fletcher, agreed, a pendulum with a bit of "extra" would if it were a straight pendulum, eg bob on "weightless" string, quickly do 360°. Then after several turns fly off and knock down some buildings. C'est la vie.

However, a pendulum will not do that, it is strictly impossible until such time as gravity starts fluctuating locally in a nicely timed manner, and it doesn't seem so far so disposed. So to regain position and more, the "pendulum" must be part of a device such as an oscillator, or a wheel, or else. And IMHO to accomplish this phenomenen of position and + , ropes, springs, cams and other junk are necessary. If you let that lot do 360°, Lord help us. To be a little clearer as to one of the directions I'm working in, imagine a small wheel (hub) with a weight at 12, a length of flexy bamboo as a external "spoke" at 11:30 with atop a weight 50% of the hub weight. You get a delay, with a whiplash weigh in effect when bamboo realizes what's going on and flicks around faster than G is pulling "hub". Quite a bit more complex than that, but that explains basic principle. looks more like a disk brake shoe, but bamboo pole illustrates the effect. Agreed, there is a minus as the "bamboo spoke" bends/loads at start, but it is more than compensated by velocity but I don't want to get involved in discussion of physics or bolas or else :) Public Health Warning : do not try experiments with weights atop bamboo poles on wheels, serious fatalities will arise. And it won't work :) Most definitely.

John: what I meant is that nothing positive is to be expected to arise from the established order, but we stand a very good chance of seeing some nutter from the fringe come up with a G engine :)

alex : yes, that is the exact definition IMHO.

[FunWithGravity2]

However, a pendulum will not do that, it is strictly impossible until such time as gravity starts fluctuating locally in a nicely timed manner, and it doesn't seem so far so disposed.

Can I refer to CF/CP as "artificial gravity" ? and just alleviate all my confusion with them.


Dave

"If a pendulum can reset to the same height it started from each half cycle then that can quickly be turned into a full 360 degree wheel rotation that doesn't require change of direction. "
FLETCHER



Agreed



Nic, slight adjustment
"So the only thing that will happen in 2009 is a working gravity motor (meaning a pendulum which can reset)

Interesting times.


YES, interesting indeed.



CRAZY dave

[Fletcher]

Centrifugal forces are sometimes touted as the answer but here's the dilemma - this applies to both oscillating pendulum & rotary devices where a mass changes radius to change velocity.

In order for a pendulum to swing higher we need to move the bob to a closer radius i.e. lift it towards the pivot - if this is accomplished the CoM of the pendulum has been lifted & brought closer to the axle pivot - CoAM says that angular velocity will attempt to be maintained & the pendulum will speed up taking it to a higher position - so far so good - but once that pendulum is past 3 or 9 o'cl [horizontal] then the bob mass must be lifted again to reset - if you let it swing from below horizontal then you only have to lift it once.

But, if you want to move a mass closer to the pivot you are working against Cf's that want to make the radius larger, thus slowing the pendulum, working against your objective.

I know that many believe that Cf's could hold the answer however by that act of changing radius in a productive way - here's the problem I believe to extracting usable energy from Cf's & Cp's - I'll use a thought example to illustrate.

Take two masses [one heavy & one light weight] - connect then via a rope [like a bola] - run the string thru a glass tube [like the recent Julius Sumner Miller video demonstrates on youtube].

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cikYZQN ... ature=fvwp

Swing the light weight horizontally - as the speed of rotation increases the rope slides thru the glass tube handle & the heavy dangling weight rises thus proving that Cf's can raise a heavy weight but does this tell you anything about the energy requirements ?

N.B. 'sGravesande showed a similar experiment using differential weights, the light one on a horizontal spinning disk.

If you think that Cf's can raise the weight you are right, but what you needed to do was account for the rotational kinetic energy you put into the system which was greater than the heavy weights gain in Pe [both in Joules] after losses.

If in doubt about the energy requirements then design an experiment that runs in reverse i.e. a heavy dangling weight falls vertically & in doing so spins up a horizontal plate with a sliding light weight on it - eventually equilibrium should be arrived at where the heavy weight is no longer accelerating downwards [not loosing height] & the Cf's from the spinning platform & weight should be at a certain rpm to equalise forces - although I have not done this I would suggest that the heavy weight would continue to slowly descend - what is probably evident is that the heavy weight would not spin the table at sufficient rpm to raise the heavy weight back up again, or even stop it loosing height, after adjustment for frictional losses.

The conclusion from the hypothesis would seem that Cf' & Cp's can not provide extra usable energy to do mechanical work & sustain the system without additional energy input into the system.

[ruggerodk]

If a pendulum can reset to the same height it started from each half cycle then that can quickly be turned into a full 360 degree wheel rotation that doesn't require change of direction.

Why not say a quarter? ;-)
ruggero
PS: and a happy new year to everybody ;-D

[nicbordeaux]

Dave, don't worry about cf and cp, you'll only convince yourself something won't work. Whereas if you don't worry about that stuff you just build things which don't work :) You might however on seeing them not work understand what might/would/will make them work. On about to being bit by a dog, some guys will be able to tell what race, what age the dog is, plus the name of it's parents. Some don't care for the detail and just shoot the dawg. 2009 ? No, 2010. Nothing exists until it's posted working in vid on youtube.

Fletcher, I have no choice but to agree with you, because after having read all that about cf's and stuff my mind has become blank and I don't know whch way the toilet or the bathroom is anymore. All I can say is that in the bamboo scenario there is a initial resistance as the bamboo bends and the weight atop remains stationary, then the bamboo whips fast to "straight" during which time the weight doesn't register much, but it sure does when the bamboo straightening at speed catches up with the "hub" and tries to overtake it. The point at which this "delivery" happens is crucial. The issue of course with this silly bamboo illustration is that a bamboo will oscillate uncontrollably, and detract, plus before completion of the turn it will act counterproductively excet if very finely tuned, and then it's only good for one turn. Hence it is only a loose illustration of a more controlled mech on a beam, where any overshoot can be used, the difficulty as usual being adapting load to power produced. Anyway, usual story, it's hot air until a vid is online and showing a worker.

[FunWithGravity2]

Sorry to change the subject Nic but this is related, and your thread really belongs in OFF Topic anyway.

If someone in the US wants to file a patent on their wheel, but does NOT want to file patents in other countries. If the inventor keeps the information unpublished but blabs his big mouth enough to let other figure out what exactly is happening. Can the others if in another country get a patent on the same invention since no prior art would be available if the first US inventor did not disclose pictures of what they were doing. Or would they temporarily allow the patent in the foreign country until they saw a US inventor was first or would two different people get credit in 2 different countries and both have patents.

evad yzarc

[KAS]

2010 No way, nothing is going to happen,

So the only thing that will happen in 2010 is a working gravity motor

A contradiction in terms. So, what are your true thoughts Nic?

Do you think we are all wasting our time, or do you believe that a breakthrough is imminent?

Just interested.

Kas

[DrWhat]

Exactly KAS.

If John Collins (or someone else) doesn't reveal the answer soon or in fact not have the answer, will most of us admit defeat, give up and build wooden toys to give to kids in need or something like that?! At least something more productive! When I build something I want to use it or sell it. With these damn wheels, I build and then just throw the whole design away and move on. A non reward scenario!

How long can we persevere with this?

I am actually quite addicted to this quest which is a problem. I read practically all the posts. Hoping for a glimmer of promise.
C'mon John, let us have it. Patience is running thin!

Damian

[raj]

Aren't we all ADDICTs and NUTTERs? or the ODD-ONEs?

[path_finder]

A fable of Jean de la Fontaine (1621-1695), moralist:
http://www.eturama.com/edu/lafontaine/t ... e-358.html

[raj]

Excusez-moi monsieur, I cannot see the relevance. Kindly explain!