POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

A Bessler, gravity, free-energy free-for-all. Registered users can upload files, conduct polls, and more...

Moderator: scott

When the weight strikes the board at the rim, does it immediately move off or does it remain at rest against the board while the rim rotates for a certain amount of degrees then it lifts off?

You may select 1 option

 
 
View results

User avatar
rocky
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:55 pm
Location: Anaheim (Disneyland) California

POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by rocky »

This is a very important topic and I hope the poll answers will give insight to the correct design. I hope you all participate.

“One could hear the weights landing on the overbalanced side, as though they were swinging, from which one can assume that the overbalancing was caused by their impact. I suggest that the weights deliver a force on impact, acquired during the fall, onto a piece of wood which is fixed to the periphery. In this way, the wheel is put into rotation by the impact of the weights, which can be heard.� - PM 114 Christian Wolff letter to Schumacher

“During rotation, one can clearly hear the weights hitting against the wooden boards. I was able to see these boards through a slit. They are slightly warped.� - PM 70 Christian Wolff letter to Leibniz

“At every turn of the wheel can be heard the sound of about eight weights, which fall gently on the side towards which the wheel turns.� - PM 95 Joseph Fischer letter

“Herr Orffyreus supposedly gets to the root of the matter when he asserts that children in the lane play with his perpetual motion or so-called superior force.� - Critique by Christian Wagner translated by Andrew Witter
[ Hoop and Stick toy where stick hits rim to move it ]

“A work of this kind has as its basis of motion many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, as one takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places.� - AP 291

“The weights which rest below must, in a flash, be raised upwards.� - AP 329

“An anvil receives many blows.� - AP 295
“Children play with heavy clubs.� - AP 295
“He is rewarded with a pat on his paws.� - AP 295

Quote References
PM - Perpetual Motion: An Ancient Mystery Solved?, John Collins, England 1999
AP – Apologia Poetica (Formal Poetic Defense), Bessler, Germany 1716, John Collins translation 2005
Attachments
Typical Hoop and Stick toy that Bessler said Children play with his Superior Force of lever hitting the rim to push it forward
Typical Hoop and Stick toy that Bessler said Children play with his Superior Force of lever hitting the rim to push it forward
- Rocky (Robert)
"All the clues become clear when you see the working machine." - Rocky
"Perhaps God will allow you to invent it, and fathom the mystery of true motive power." -Johann Bessler AP 265
User avatar
DrWhat
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2040
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2007 11:41 pm

Post by DrWhat »

Rocky, please be aware that the "warped" boards translation has been found to be incorrect. I can't remember precisely but I think it was decided that it translated as "ply" or something similar.

If a weight was hitting the frame then no motion would occur unless the levered weight rebounds back, so that there is a forward push. Or at least hits and then it's forward motion is stopped (in space in a sense) as the wheel frame progresses forward. Without some form of spring or springed platform then damage to the frame would surely result?

Damian
User avatar
Stewart
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1352
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am
Location: Devon, England

Post by Stewart »

Hi Rocky

I finding it very interesting to hear all the quotes you're putting together recently - it's good to have a reminder of things that have been said. It's also helping me to know what quotes people are interested in so that I can make sure I have a list of all the interesting quotes available on my website, so thank you - keep them coming! I don't have time to comment on all the ones that I think could be improved on unfortunately, but will carry on doing a few here and there until I get my website open. I'm just trying to finish posting my comments about the DT inner wheel description, but you keep distracting me, so it might be a few days before I get that done now! ;-)

The "warped boards" translation is wrong - I couldn't find anything that meant warped in the original handwritten letter. Here's my translation (the words between the two ~ symbols were crossed out):

"... In fact in the periphery [of the wheel] here and there small 'normal' beams were attached, which on rotation of the wheel ~it was evident~ were quite clearly perceived to be hit by weights. I have noticed those small beams [while] looking through a crack, although from a distance. ..."

The small beams are described as 'normal' which I think means at right-angles to the tangent of the wheel rather than meaning 'usual'. For more details read the following two posts of mine...
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 1635#51635
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 3533#63533

All the best
Stewart
User avatar
Michael
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:10 pm
Location: Victoria

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by Michael »

Two things Rocky;
“Herr Orffyreus supposedly gets to the root of the matter when he asserts that children in the lane play with his perpetual motion or so-called superior force.�
There is no mention of what exactly was being played with in the lane, the hoop and stick idea came from some members here and it's not in the quote. Also realize that quote came from Wagner.
meChANical Man.
--------------------
"All things move according to the whims of the great magnet"; Hunter S. Thompson.
martin
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 73
Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 8:56 pm

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by martin »

When it comes to old toys there are few more adepts in this game.
http://www.toysfromtimespast.com/action2.htm

To the topic, nobody really knows what those falling weights done. What was reall purpose of its fall, becouse you have to face the fact that falling weight during its fall have no weight at all.

Martin
User avatar
Michael
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:10 pm
Location: Victoria

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by Michael »

Don't forget stick and ball.
meChANical Man.
--------------------
"All things move according to the whims of the great magnet"; Hunter S. Thompson.
Clarkie
Aficionado
Aficionado
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Petworth England

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by Clarkie »

I think Michael is right, stick and ball but maybe its bat and ball.

Also, the assumption is that the weights were heard falling against "bars", maybe the weights were rising and hitting the bars, knocking them outwards.

I think the weights hit the "bars" and bounced back, so I'm in the minority as usual.

Pete.
Trevor Lyn Whatford
Devotee
Devotee
Posts: 1975
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:13 pm
Location: England

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by Trevor Lyn Whatford »

Hi rocky,

I built a velocity shunt wheel last year to see if besslers wheel was tapped around.

The wheel had eight symmetrical slots and weights, four on each side, the slots had a two inch fall that would be increased if the wheel was moving
because the slot would be moving so the weight would fall a greater distance. what happened was this, while the weight was falling it gave a four to three weight ratio to the opposing side so even when the falling weight with velocity struck the wheel it was not able to counter the torque gained by the opposing 4 to 3 weight imbalance so the wheel came to rest.

I hope this is of interest to you, Regards Trevor
I have been wrong before!
I have been right before!
Hindsight will tell us!
User avatar
rocky
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 153
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:55 pm
Location: Anaheim (Disneyland) California

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by rocky »

Thank you everyone for your comments. The exchange of ideas in this forum hopefully will result in rediscovering the secret of Bessler’s machine.

I am glad Stewart that you like the quotes I am putting together. I’ll keep them coming. I really appreciate your help in the correct translations.
I am putting together another poll to see what we all think about the design.

Thank you Martin for the link to the photos of vintage toys.

Your are correct Michael that we do not know if the Hoop and Stick toy was what Bessler was referring to when Wagner quoted him.
But of all the possible toys, it is the only one that agrees with the clue of “Children playing in the lane.�
All the other toys shown on Martin’s link page can be played in the house. Pete and Michael, your stick and ball or bat and ball is played in a field.
The hoop requires the smooth surface of a street or lane because you run with it . In my opinion it is the only toy played in the lane.

Your experiment was very interesting Trevor. Thank you for sharing it.

I was surprised by how few of you voted on this poll. At this time it was viewed 155 times but only 11 people voted.

How many of you think the wheel is NOT turned by a weight hitting the rim?

Do you instead think it is just the shifting of weights inside?
Damian, you wrote “If a weight was hitting the frame then no motion would occur ...� What is your opinion of how it moves?

I am trying to build the uni-directional wheel of Gera or Drashwitz. I believe that this wheel would self-start from any rotational position.
If I was to manually rotate and stop the wheel at every degree position from 1 to 360, that when I released it that it would start.
Do all of you believe that?

If not I would like to hear your opinion.
- Rocky (Robert)
"All the clues become clear when you see the working machine." - Rocky
"Perhaps God will allow you to invent it, and fathom the mystery of true motive power." -Johann Bessler AP 265
User avatar
Michael
Addict
Addict
Posts: 3065
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:10 pm
Location: Victoria

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by Michael »

Rocky we also don't know if Wagner well lying or not. There are numerous citations by Bessler in his writing where he calls Wagner nothing but a lying enemy.
Nowadays we might say that a bat and ball are played in the field, but you shouldn't place modern meanings on older time frames. Batting around a ball with a stick is a pretty old game and was often played in lanes as was a form of street hockey. What's simpler than picking up a stick and hitting a rock around? And whose to say the game used toys at all? It could have been as simple as two children holding hands and swinging each other around.
meChANical Man.
--------------------
"All things move according to the whims of the great magnet"; Hunter S. Thompson.
User avatar
Fletcher
Addict
Addict
Posts: 8200
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:03 am
Location: NZ

Re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by Fletcher »

rocky wrote:This is a very important topic and I hope the poll answers will give insight to the correct design. I hope you all participate.

“One could hear the weights landing on the overbalanced side, as though they were swinging, from which one can assume that the overbalancing was caused by their impact. I suggest that the weights deliver a force on impact, acquired during the fall, onto a piece of wood which is fixed to the periphery. In this way, the wheel is put into rotation by the impact of the weights, which can be heard.� - PM 114 Christian Wolff letter to Schumacher

“During rotation, one can clearly hear the weights hitting against the wooden boards. I was able to see these boards through a slit. They are slightly warped.� - PM 70 Christian Wolff letter to Leibniz

“At every turn of the wheel can be heard the sound of about eight weights, which fall gently on the side towards which the wheel turns.� - PM 95 Joseph Fischer letter

“Herr Orffyreus supposedly gets to the root of the matter when he asserts that children in the lane play with his perpetual motion or so-called superior force.� - Critique by Christian Wagner translated by Andrew Witter

[ Hoop and Stick toy where stick hits rim to move it ]

“A work of this kind has as its basis of motion many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, as one takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places.� - AP 291

“The weights which rest below must, in a flash, be raised upwards.� - AP 329

“An anvil receives many blows.� - AP 295
“Children play with heavy clubs.� - AP 295
“He is rewarded with a pat on his paws.� - AP 295

Quote References

PM - Perpetual Motion: An Ancient Mystery Solved?, John Collins, England 1999

AP – Apologia Poetica (Formal Poetic Defense), Bessler, Germany 1716, John Collins translation 2005

Explanations of pictures below:

1. OOB & Impact principle; 4 lever format - levers fall vertically after arriving at 12 o'cl - impacting at around 3 o'cl - as the wheel moves faster & gathers pace there is an arrival at stops time lag & impact position gets lower towards 4 & 5 o'cl - there is correspondingly less torque produced at higher rpm - the weights that are shifted along the levers [EDIT: as per the toy page hammer men CoM shifting principle perhaps, as previously discussed] must be latched & spring loaded to be 'fired/launched' upwards to a closer radius after 6 o'cl - method of shifting weights not shown.

MT9 [thanks to www.orffyre.com] - introducing the connectedness principle - see wiki page notes of bessler's description - OOB & impact shown though the method of lifting the levers & weights is not shown.

MT18 [thanks www.orffyre.com] - see wiki pages notes from bessler - he says that it tells more than it shows but he will later show more than he tells - an impact wheel with spring flexibility to give it a whip effect i.e. arriving with greater Ke at impact positions/stops - simply introducing the concept of greater Ke impacting the rim.

MT55 [thanks www.orffyre.com] - the last of Bessler's annotated designs where previously he has been leading up to revelations to come - impact wheel where weighted levers hit paddle wheels which stores energy in a flywheel to turn the mechanism - the levers must be able to rotate around their spline 360 degrees & be able to fall faster than acceleration due to gravity would allow conventionally ["acquired during the fall" - wolff] - they would then arrive with greatest Ke, enough to overcome the not inconsiderable frictional losses of this machine - method of uber accelerating the levers not shown.

EDIT: N.B. here Bessler shows more than he tells [MT18 reference]

Comment:

Wolff IMO is one of the most reliable sources of accurate information along with Wagner & 'sGravesande - Wolff studied the wheel closely & concluded that it was probably impact driven - s'Gravesande also viewed the wheels & then went on to do impact experiments & formulate the V^2 premiss of Ke.

If impact drove these wheels then a method of accelerating the falling levers faster than gravity could do was found by Bessler - conversely, if OOB was the preferred method of creating torque then Bessler discovered a way to lift the levers into position at the appropriate time & then they fell under gravity.

So, the weights were the source of the OOB constituting the PM device, but the method of positioning the weights or weights & levers or accelerating the levers was the well kept secret & cause for speculation - it seems almost certain that his earlier wheels, at least, were a combination of impact & OOB driven, IMO.
Attachments
MT55 [thanks www.orffyre.com]
MT55 [thanks www.orffyre.com]
MT18 [thanks www.orffyre.com]
MT18 [thanks www.orffyre.com]
MT9 [thanks www.orffyre.com]
MT9 [thanks www.orffyre.com]
Shifting CoM [of LEVER] & Impact wheel format - 4 levers.
Shifting CoM [of LEVER] & Impact wheel format - 4 levers.
Last edited by Fletcher on Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
justsomeone
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2070
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:21 pm

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by justsomeone »

quote from Rocky: How many of you think the wheel is NOT turned by a weight hitting the rim?

JMHO: I don't think the the wheel was turned by the weight hitting the rim. Too many hard impacts on a warped board with a 4 lb. weight would have destroyed it. I believe the impacts were just stops for the weights and the power came from the movement into the OOB positions.
nicbordeaux
Addict
Addict
Posts: 2140
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:54 pm
Location: France

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by nicbordeaux »

Rocky,

the only way you'll get any joy out of that sort of question is to build a wheel and try :)

Best rgds
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
FunWithGravity
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 219
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:05 pm

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by FunWithGravity »

Rocky,
Which Weight?
A great discovery solves a great problem, but there is a grain of discovery in the solution of any problem.
Dave Roberts
Enthusiast
Enthusiast
Posts: 219
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:35 pm
Location: Spencer, Indiana

re: POLL: Does the Weight Rest after Impact?

Post by Dave Roberts »

Currently I am the sole vote that the weight did not stike the board on the rim. By that I mean that it hits a stop, but the stop is not attached to the rim (and therefore resulting in motion). The stop is part of an internal frame but located close to the rim.
Then again, I could be wrong but it is not the premise I am currently following.
Dave
Post Reply