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nicbordeaux
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I really don't get this :( No response at all.

Post by nicbordeaux »

In a previous topic, maybe a bit disorganized, I propsed the following solution to PM: skip to the bold type please

From a nylon wheel with a 40 gramme OB driver weight, we fling a magnet weighing say 20 grammes 2 x the height of the driver weight loss. The magnet then ataches itself to a steel plate.

An inert identically sized flung object will go from gpe, ke, to gpe if caught in a hopper, at apex preferably.

The magnet is a N45 28 kg nominal force. That means that it's "potential energy" on being attached is what ? You need 28 kgs pull to remove it from the steel plate and get your gpe to ke.

As one supposes that the magnet's qualities (eg 28 kg potential) has in no way changed during the process (the only change being it's environment: non magnetic to ferrous), one totally discounts the fact that 28 kgs force/very real resistance have been "added" to the setup ?

We got this magnetic conservative potential which manifests itself in a certain form upon a change in environment.

It's like a pingpong ball which has for sure a bouncability/cor or just straight gpe. But if we change the environment, whaddayaknow, we got buoyancy potential.


So you got this aquarium w/o no fish, you got a pingpong ball with a smallish neo mag in it, on the bottom of the tank you have a big neo magnet. The ball magnet gets attracted then repelled (cause the pingpong ball kinda rotates and polarity repel stuff happens, added to the the buoyancy stuff). And this should reach a point of equilibrium at some point. Except each time the pingpong ball/mag gets a differential in attraction from the big mag, it creates turbulence in the water, which is even more unpredictability, causing more unpredictabilty in turn, so the thing can never stop moving. Hey presto, PM.

You can kep the Nobel fiziks prize, just send the bread this way please.

Edit : brain.exe is in runaway mode... So the big mag at the bottom of tank we consider for reasons of simplicity as being fixed, not on a spring or else, and orientated South up. The pingpong balls (plural) have little donut or washer neo mags (6 x 2, .640 kg force) glued inside them, the glued to wall side being North. They are all north so will repel each other. "Ang on, you can holler, they'll attract from the other side. No way, mag attraction decreases I think with the square of distance, so square the dia of a pingpong ball and do the math, it's too a long way, even if by rotation that distance can decrease somewhat. "Yeah, but the ping pong ball mag combo get's attracted to the big mag in the tank, the further is sinks the greater the attraction". Hold yer hawses. The deeper the ball sinks, the more that Archie Meedys bloke becomes relevant. The force increases against immersion. The deeper you sink, the harder it becomes to sink further. Plus Archie (again) says that a pingpong ball immersed in a bucket of water will displace an amount of water equal to it's own volume, or something to that effect.

The way you get a mag into a pingpong ball is like this : the mag is dia. 6 mm. Skewer a 12 mm hole in the ball. Insert mag. Insert sticky tape and press down to secure mag. Inject a adequate amount of expansive foam from a aerosol can and wait until it dries and finishes expanding. Sand of the surplus.

Let me give you another tip : using a cyclinder container for this trick does significantly reduce the likelyhood of your balls getting caught in a corner.
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nicbordeaux
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re: I really don't get this :( No response at all.

Post by nicbordeaux »

Very quick sketch, I have an irresistible urge to go and play with my balls in the kitchen sink.
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Post by greendoor »

Nic - my reason for complete disinterest in free energy devices that depend on magnets or buoyancy is because A/ there are plenty of other crackpot free energy sites that get off on these things, and B/ it is far easier to disprove these ideas, and C/ unlike Bessler, there is no historically significant evidence of any successful runners using these ideas, and D/ they lack the simplicity and low budget possibilitys of a gravity powered wheel.

Magnets are all around us and pretty well understood. There is no magical way to get free energy out of a magnet, because it is pretty obvious, to anyone who has played with a magnet, that it takes as much force to seperate them as what you can get from the power of attraction. MANY, MANY people have tried to make magnet powered motors, and so far there have not been any PROVEN runners. Lots of smoke, still no fire. There are better forums for magnet motors than this forum - best not cloud the issue.

Buoyancy IS gravity - just the pure inverse. Go and play in the sink if you need to figure this out for yourself. The force of buoyancy is the force of the surround water being pulled down by gravity. When you push your bottle under the water, you are pushing up the water - against the force of gravity. Just like a magnet - you can only get out what you put into it. The problem with hydraulics is that there are big losses and lots of mess. It's much easier and drier to play with weights on pendulums or levers than to fool around with water etc.

Combination devices that use mixtures of gravity and magnets and buoyancy are just confusing the whole issue, in my not so humble opinion.

I'm also adverse to anything using electric motors or solenoids etc, for the simple reason that it introduces endless arguments about the measurement of power input vs power output. There are plenty of other forums when you debate the crap out of Bedini and Beardon and Tesla, blah, blah, woof, woof ... it gets really boring with NO RUNNERS.

And yet Bessler made a wheel that turned and made an indelible mark on history. What are we missing?
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re: I really don't get this :( No response at all.

Post by Grimer »

greendoor wrote:A/ there are plenty of other crackpot free energy sites that get off on these things, and B/ it is far easier to disprove these ideas, and C/ unlike Bessler, there is no historically significant evidence of any successful runners using these ideas, and D/ they lack the simplicity and low budget possibilitys of a gravity powered wheel.
Good answer. Image

I second that.
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re: I really don't get this :( No response at all.

Post by nicbordeaux »

I'll agree w/ that too, the concept is pretty much useless in that it won't replace fossil fuel lol. Except for the fact that if you could prove that there will always be at least one part of the system moving, be it the water, there is a point made, which would upset a great number of stoopid people, and that would make my day.

We'll soon see, going out this am to buy a cheapo load of 80 pingpong balls at the sports shop. The mags i have already 100 x.

So, whatever the outcome, it'll be fun for both my son and me. Worst comes to worst, we release 100 magnetized pingpong balls into the river, trout fishing open day is second sat of March. All we need is for one very big trout to swallow a ball and we can pull it out with a 56 kg mag on a string.

EDIT :

1) hey gals, where is it suggested that induction current should be produced and recycled into moving the gizmo ?

2) Other variables to introduce : tank on central pivot, springs around underside outer. Tiny paddles on rotating main magnet. Pendulum (lol). Also air pressure variable, best to avoid that, arguments about Maxwell daemon and stuff, plus you need to seal the container and have valve for inflate, and outer reservoirs which impact and deform, shooting air back into tank.

I can really see this a real trip, locked out in the shop for months on end, no social life, sticking bits of chewing gum here and there.
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Post by Unbalanced »

Its an interesting idea Nick. I too have to agree that this is perhaps not the best forum for presenting this idea. The Off topic forum perhaps would be better.

I would think that a smaller container like a large pill bottle and just one magnet on the bottom and one magnet filled ping pong ball would prove your point.

If nothing else it might make a fun desktop kinetic sculpture especially if you replaced the ping pong ball with a fish, frog or turtle shaped float that would have the same property of wanting to repel against its natural righting tendency.

I bought my 3-yr-old grand daughter a battery powered aquarium that works off a similar principle, that of randomly firing electric magnets under an aquarium filled with neutrally buoyant, magnet-filled fish.

http://www.ladollshouse.com/miniature-fish-tank.html

Here's a similar principle at work (yet unrelated) video that has sparked outrage across China recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t74cOOgYuHI
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re: I really don't get this :( No response at all.

Post by nicbordeaux »

"I bought my 3-yr-old grand daughter a battery powered aquarium that works off a similar principle, that of randomly firing electric magnets under an aquarium filled with neutrally buoyant, magnet-filled fish."

I totally disagree. Using elctromags is totally different from using static mags.

With an electromag, any nut can make a running wheel. If anybody has money to waste, I will build one. You'll be looking at about
5 000 (hurry up, maybe tommorow the price doubles) bucks to make it worth my while, plus maybe 200 bucks of supplies. Payable iin advance. You can then spend the rest of your life arguing with the zero point energy mag motor nutters whether it is OU or not, if you use a capacitor or battery as supply, and close the circuit by generating from the wheel and feeding back to the capacitor.

In the unlikely scenario of the two conservative forces (gravity & magnetism) constantly having their force magnitude relationship changed by distance change caused by medium instability, we are well into Bessler related phenomena.

Still, if Scott wants to move it to oftopic, his decision, and it would not cause me to loose any sleep whatsoever.

If this works, like it or not, it is PM. Not a wheel. But permanent motion nevertheless. That is a point well worth proving.
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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Post by nicbordeaux »

Just in case ('scusi for bouncing ideas about and using the forum as a blackboard)...

If this is better, anybody interested in buying 8 packs of pingpong balls (one opened) ?

What the 'istory books will say: "Whilst the astounded PM world waited with bated breath, Poponov continued redlining his small brain. Well, most of the PM world. Some were down the patent office, others playing with pingpong balls in the bathtub. Yet more, after suffering severe shock leading to schizoïd spasms treated by heavy sedation, entered catatonic denial. Disorientated MIB and aliens awaited instructions from higher authority. As news spread through the Scientific community, disbelief and scoffing left place to amazement."
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'Ang on a minute, this could be way far out cool.
'Ang on a minute, this could be way far out cool.
Last edited by nicbordeaux on Sat Feb 19, 2011 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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Post by ovyyus »

Even though I am spiteful and jealous, petty minded and refuse to recognize a genuine genius, the suspense is killing me :D
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Post by nicbordeaux »

Hang in there Bill, this is just a gentle buildup. Be prepared for the thing to be mounted on an oscillating seesaw, itself mounted on a old rocking 'orse the wife was about to throw out but was salvaged in time. You'll by now have guessed that on the rocking horse head there will be mounted an OB wheel. Obviously, one would have protuding from the horse's rear end a gyroscope. Or maybe a propellor.

"Newton becomes dirty word: Independantly verified rumours of major free energy breakthrough by formerley considered totally insane lone garden shed inventor see scientific community in ecstasy, beatitude, blessedness, euphoria, felicity, gladness, joy and rapture. Markets closed as pandemonium hits, traders unaware what to short as inventor explains he has no idea why device works".
Last edited by nicbordeaux on Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by nicbordeaux »

Putting the cart before them 'orses wuz a mistake. The 'orses 'ad a 'ard time pushing rather than pulling.
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pingpong balls in pairs with mag rotating and linkage over OB wheel..png
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Progress report

Post by nicbordeaux »

Pretty much as expected, hard to find the right balance between magnetic force and buoyancy so as to generate enough waves in the water. Everything still mounted static except for the balls. Better to study that before letting the whole contraption run wild.

Obviously a distint tendancy for the pingpong balls to crowd together around a central magnet, partial success in overcoming this by using a few quite heavy non-magnetized riot police balls. These sporadically charge through the crowd of pingpong balls and use their weight to disperse them. The pingpong balls then immediately regroup, whilst the bouncer balls wander brainlessley around the tank until finding some more crowds to beat up. Interesting. Bovver boys playing a useful role.

Quite a societal model.
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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Post by Unbalanced »

Good Day Nick,

Rather than using "riot police balls" to break up the crowd over the permanent magnet at the bottom, you might try creating slide-in partitions at the ends of your tank that can be adjusted toward the center so as to create the correct tank length that will afford a distance conducive to a standing wave form, this assuming your ping pong balls will make waves. Standing waves may do the job of breaking up the crowd.

I made the suggestion of trying this experiment in a small container, using just one ball as this may lend a clearer picture of what will happen.

My guess is that the ping pong ball would settle down eventually and find equilibrium.

I may just have to take a few minutes this morning and try this experiment if I can lay my hands on a ping pong ball.
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Post by nicbordeaux »

For sure, one lonely ball, you get stability. The partitions are a good idea. I'm going for unpredictable as possible with riffle patterns like a mountain stream, irregular shaped bottom, protusions. If the completed test device runs 1 minute at full blast, it'll be nice. 5 minutes and it's a victory. Over 30 minutes, I'm rich. It'll be big. You have a bath tub with the mags and pingpong balls on a four wheel vehicle, the bathtub jumps all over the place and you take a one way drive to the rear wheels, fit a rubber cover. Wash and drive.
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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Post by nicbordeaux »

OK, now I get why nobody was interested : I forgot to talk about the momentum exchange between the liquid and the pingpong balls. The water takes the momentum from the pingpong balls and acts as a recipient therefore, then it returns it in very generous measure to the balls via movement (turbulence). Movement being momentum, there you are.
If you think you have an overunity device, think again, there is no such thing. You might just possibly have an unexpectedly efficient device. In which case you will be abducted by MIB and threatened by aliens.
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