Gravity, CF, or both?

[DrWhat]

daxwc: go the Aussie inventor!

[DrWhat]

Ps Jim,

I think you are holding the list upside down :-)))

[eccentrically1]

So eccentrically1 what is stopping us from harvesting rotational energy off the earth; other than a viable design?

The moon is also slowing down the rotation of the earth by a fraction of a second a day. I can't remember the exact number, something like 4 nanoseconds.

If you could build something on the scale you would need to harvest the rotational energy of the earth it would be most impressive.

The force amplifier in the link hasn't made it past the drawing board, has it? The last sentence in the abstract is the dream: "Part of the energy from the output shaft is returned to the input to maintain operation of the apparatus".

That is a great list, Jim.

[path_finder]

This is the AP drawing, revisited by me.
With the acknowledge of the Bessler's paranoiac behavior, the original drawing could be intentionally wrong (or deviant).
IMHO the central drum can be hold free (and excentered) by just a set of 12 curved springs, like in my drawing below.
At the rest position the original drawing could be right (centered).
When rotating the centrifugal force could shift the central drum apart of the central axis, depending the first start impulse.
Just an idea, no way for the moment to verify the concept with any practical building.

[Alexioco]

If gravity soley powered besslers wheels, then you may aswell make a simple pendulum, start it off and expect it to perpetuate. There is no difference between that and putting weights within a wheel and expecting them to lift each other back up gaining energy so to perpetuate. If a pendulum cannot do it then how can a wheel with just weights working purely off gravity? The best you could do is make it very close to reset but would eventually become less and less like a pendulum. There needs to be a secondary force to give the "pendulum" that extra nudge.

Alex

[path_finder]

Dear alex,
You are right only if the bob of your pendulum is static.
What if the bob is an ape climbing and sliding on the rope (a device named 'parametric pendulum')?
Also what if the bob is itself an heavy flywheel rotating? In this case the centrifugal force assumes the eccentricity, and the gravity makes the job.

[Alexioco]

Firstly, an ape requires muscle to climb up and down so the muscle would be the motive force in that case. Secondly there needs to be an energy source to start and keep a flywheel rotating. That source wouldnt be gravity because if it was, then you may aswell forget the flywheel and perpetuate one big wheel in the style of Bessler. Supose you got a flywheel spinning on the end of a pendulum, what would happen?

Alex

[path_finder]

Dear Alex,

an ape requires muscle to climb up and down

The summary of Potential Energy used by the ape is null. Remember here:
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 5228#65228
The parametric pendulum is one of the solution (ask JC).

Supose you got a flywheel spinning on the end of a pendulum, what would happen?

Do it yourself. It is easy. You will be surprised.


edited:
see also here:
http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&source=we ... tQ&cad=rja
paragraph 'Gyropendulum and gyrocompass' at the middle of the page

[KAS]

If the argument here is whether or not gravity is conservative, then there is no argument.

It is without doubt that gravity is very much conservative, and it's only when we accept this as fact that we can move on to discover a ways to outsmart it.

My contribution to this is that I have found a way to accelerate a mass horizontally. Yes that's right! at rightangles to the direction of gravity and only using gravitational force as a source.

No other mass, attached or otherwise, loses height in the process. that would prove pointless.
It is a simple independent mass that accelerates through the horizontal plane, building in Ke in the process.

The only thing I am having problems with is resetting it back to its original position. i.e. if it moves 10cm to the left, I am unable to reset it 10cm to the right without it losing height.

I am working on it however.

My point here is that we may not be able to contravene the law of gravitational conservation of energy, but that doesn't mean that we can't find a loophole in it.

Kas

[Unbalanced]

jim_mich wrote:

Gravity is a conservative force. It is impossible for gravity to power a perpetual motion wheel. That is a scientific fact

This is an absolute truth. It would behoove those in this pursuit to simply remove gravity from the equation. A conservative force by its nature/definition is not a force that can be utilized to do useful work.

jim_mich wrote:

Note that he includes mill-wheels, which were turned by falling water and thus were turned by gravity.

In Actuality Jim, mill wheels are turned by the sun. They are solar-powered devices. The sun lifts the water. Gravity only returns it to it's position of stasis.

[Richard]

unbalance states

This is an

absolute truth.

It would behoove those in this pursuit to simply remove gravity from the equation. A conservative force by its nature/definition is not a force that can be utilized to do useful work.

Very well stated Curtis; Thank you.

In particular sir, I am drawn to your words

absolute truth.

I understand well, the theory of Gravity and equally the meaning of the word theory.

KAS

My contribution to this is that I have found a way to accelerate a mass horizontally. Yes that's right! at rightangles to the direction of gravity and only using gravitational force as a source.

Yes KAS...continue with this in both directions and best of luck.

richard

edited to ask?
Kas, can you eliminate the reset altogether? this may be rhetorical.

[KAS]

Richard asked:

"Kas, can you eliminate the reset altogether? this may be rhetorical."

To utilise this unique effect in the workings of a self sustaining system, it will need to reset itself.

It can only travel in an arc at right angles to the direction of gravity
(a straight line in our scale), so unless it orbits the earth, it can't reset.

Although I do believe this strange horizontal mass traverse is a breakthrough in itself.

Edit:

I suppose if normal gravitational Pe = mgh then this represents Pe = mg (the h is irrelevant)

Kas

[path_finder]

A lot of topics are dedicated to the 'parametric pendulum', where the bob mass is constant but the length of the pendulum is variable.
If changed with the right timing at the right place and in the right direction, the change of the length can increase the duration of the motion.
Hereafter now I suggest another way to increase the motion:
- the length of the pendulum is constant
- but the mass of the bob is variable,
. being about marginal during the climbing parts of the path,
. and being maximum during the descending parts of the path.
The first animation below shows a standard pendulum with a length and bob being constant
The second animation shows the modified pendulum, with the different values of the mass, changing at 4:00, 6:00 and 8:00.
(the mass in red is the heaviest).

The question now is: how to change the mass, and with what synchronization mechanism ?
I have some though about.