A new idea on gravity powered engine to be considered.And it's again Non-Perpetual.

[Aman]

One idea has came into my my mind to make another type of gravity engine.
If you take a ball up through straight vertical and let it come downward through semicircle with the centre of circumference of semicircle,being slightly extended as a slightly sharp more outward corner,gravitational work done to let ball slide along the curved path is more than work supplied to lift up ball in upward vertical direction.
We can somehow use this principle to make a real Gravity engine.

And also note that more gravity is directly used in a curved downward path than going against gravity in a upper vertical path,and hence this principle is not a Perpetual Motion Machine concept.
Defination of Perpetaul Moion Machine:
Perpetual motion describes hypothetical machines that produce more work or energy than they consume, whether they might operate indefinitely or not.

See gravity points on floor line are like arrays and when heavy ball moves over the half semicircle the ball slides over horrizontal axis two times once right to left circumferential centre and then left circumferential centre to right downwards due to gravity.
Then ball is taken upward through vertical straight on right by supplying some energy.
This is how we can make gravity engine to work with heavy balls.

If the semicircle is stretched outwards from circumferential centre,you will be able to recover energy supplied from centre of circumference to downward floor motion and you will convert gravity to usable output from top most ball position to centre of circumference.

For efficiency,it is better if the semicircle is stretched outwards.A proper shape of curve ,similar to triangle with curved corners is necessary.

It is a common sense that for more distance to be covered you need more energy.For less distance to be covered,you need less energy.Vertical distance is straight and needs less energy to be supplied to lift heavy ball.(Remember that ball should be lifted in a straight path and it should not be lifted along a parabolic like curve)
The curve streched semicircular distance is much greater than Vertical straight distance.So more gravitational energy is needed to displace weight over more distance.
This is no way a perpetual motion machine But it converts Gravitational energy into Electrical energy.A Perpectual motion machine is not a energy converter but a new energy creator which is Impossible.

Note:This is a gravity engine idea basic principle but this is not a gravity wheel.Hence,we need to device a system in which ball can be slided over rails/paths as well as we need to devise a system to convert sliding movement of ball into electricity.This is therefore complex.This is just an idea,not an engine.

It is not necessary that all gravity engines are a single big gravity wheels without other equipments.

You all here are welcome to convert this flow process/idea into a proper machenism.Lets invent together.

[John Collins]

Aman please curb your enthusiasm for shouting, it's not necessary and bad etiquette.

JC

[Aman]

It is not shouting,It is highlighting important points.People have a bad habit.Some read descriptions incompletely/partially and then start commenting with a big confusion messing the thread.To make sure it do not happen or to minismise such confusion with commenters/readers ,highlightening important points with different colors and increasing font size for some important things is the best technique to avoid such confusion which I have experienced on few threads outside this website.
The letters on iPad appear too small to see,so it is good if I highlight imortant points.

[Aman]

What do you understood from this?
95 percent working Gravity engines work on the principle that the gravitational energy input is made more than what energy needed to lift ball upward ,by innovative thinking .

I have discovered two ways to do this.
I have described in my two threads.

The most problematic thing with people is they do not think how more amount of gravity can be inputted to gravity powered engine ,than that needed to take ball up.

If you substract total Gravitational energy input from the energy needed to lift heavy balls up in a gravity wheel,you get some net gravitational energy which is the net energy input to the system(input after subtraction) which can be converted to electrical energy.This is the scientific basis for any real Gravity engine.And hence real Gravity engines are not perpetual and do not violate Laws of energy conservation.

And I am surprised to know that most people at bessler wheels forum who are trying to make Gravity wheel do not consider this.If you do not consider this,you will never be able to make a gravity wheel.

[JuBragg]

Aman,
I made a wheel of this description, several years ago.
2 spaced bicycle wheels, curved ramps to flip the balls ( billiard balls) up to a higher level so there were more balls at work on one side than the other.

Unfortunately, although it went almost to plan, by the time the balls flipped up, the position by the time they were in place it was no better than a flat slight decline would produce, so , it didn't work.

Of course with a better made wheel set up, more rigid ramps or steel rails to eliminate rolling friction it might just work, but I realised that the curved track takes more time for the ball to travel, and you can't overcome that.

If by chance it did work, there would be little chance of useful energy take off, as I consoled myself when dismantling it :) so I have turned my attention to static water pressure differential pumps.

[Aman]

Good to know,you need to keep on improving the device by more new ideas to increase efficiency.If you can share with all members what you did,may be we can improve your design and try to increase efficiency.For inventing,you need to do lot of experiments and improvements.Most inventions needs continious effort and continuous new ideas,like trial and error method with learning from the process.

[rlortie]

Aman,

It has been said that it is more productive to speak softly and carry a big stick!

That is to say; a working proto-type is worth more than the largest of fonts.

Ralph

[Aman]

But you haven't read my first comment on this thread Properly.

I mentioned these:

"This is just an idea,not an engine. "

"You all here are welcome to convert this flow process/idea into a proper machenism.Lets invent together."

And this is different from my invention analogy I discussed on my another thread on,
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5266

That means I have a new basic principle idea(not working engine based on this idea).

[Aman]

One idea has came into my my mind to make another type of gravity engine.
If you take a ball up through straight vertical and let it come downward through semicircle with the centre of circumference of semicircle,being slightly extended as a slightly sharp more outward corner,gravitational work done to let ball slide along the curved path is more than work supplied to lift up ball in upward vertical direction.
We can somehow use this principle to make a real Gravity engine.

And also note that more gravity is directly used in a curved downward path than going against gravity in a upper vertical path,and hence this principle is not a Perpetual Motion Machine concept.
Defination of Perpetaul Moion Machine:
Perpetual motion describes hypothetical machines that produce more work or energy than they consume, whether they might operate indefinitely or not.

See gravity points on floor line are like arrays and when heavy ball moves over the half semicircle the ball slides over horrizontal axis two times once right to left circumferential centre and then left circumferential centre to right downwards due to gravity.
Then ball is taken upward through vertical straight on right by supplying some energy.
This is how we can make gravity engine to work with heavy balls.

If the semicircle is stretched outwards from circumferential centre,you will be able to recover energy supplied from centre of circumference to downward floor motion and you will convert gravity to usable output from top most ball position to centre of circumference.

For efficiency,it is better if the semicircle is stretched outwards.A proper shape of curve ,similar to triangle with curved corners is necessary.

It is a common sense that for more distance to be covered you need more energy.For less distance to be covered,you need less energy.Vertical distance is straight and needs less energy to be supplied to lift heavy ball.(Remember that ball should be lifted in a straight path and it should not be lifted along a parabolic like curve)
The curve streched semicircular distance is much greater than Vertical straight distance.So more gravitational energy is needed to displace weight over more distance.
This is no way a perpetual motion machine But it converts Gravitational energy into Electrical energy.A Perpectual motion machine is not a energy converter but a new energy creator which is Impossible.

Note:This is a gravity engine idea basic principle but this is not a gravity wheel.Hence,we need to device a system in which ball can be slided over rails/paths as well as we need to devise a system to convert sliding movement of ball into electricity.This is therefore complex.This is just an idea,not an engine.

It is not necessary that all gravity engines are a single big gravity wheels without other equipments.

You all here are welcome to convert this flow process/idea into a proper machenism.Lets invent together.

Can structural experts like Pathfinder,Raj,riortie and Jim_mich help me in converting this " Flow Process" into a proper Mechanism?
Let discuss some ways to construct required mechanism.
I gaurantee you,though this is not a wheel,this will be an interesting attempt to build a mechanism/Gravity powered engine.This idea is different from my older Gravity device invention discussed in my one of the other thread.

[Aman]

To explain my concept(Idea/Flow Process) elaborately,I would like to explain you an another example.
Consider 2 points A and B.
You spend some energy from combustion to let car travel from A to B straight horrizontally.
The Work done is Force * displacement = F*X.

(Now let this be similar to giving electrical energy to lift heavy ball upward vertically straight.)

Now the car is at position B.
Now let it has to travel back to A in a "different zigzag path "rather than "straight path."

Now in doing so,since the path is not straight X displacement BUT the path is Zig zag displacement,
let the car travels say Y zigzag displacement.
Zigzag displacement is greater than straight displacement.
Hence Work done of combustion for travelling from B to A is F*Y.

(Now this is similar to gravitational force acting in vertical plane which causes displacement of heavy ball around zigzag path)

F* Y is greater than F*X.

To explain the concept on vertical plane,I used the Example of a car traveling on a Horrizontal plane.Let us now talk about the idea of a gravity engine:

Now work done by Gravitational energy from B to A along Zigzag path is more than Work done along straight vertical by electrical power input along A to B.

Hence

F*Y(gravitational work from B to A on Zig Zag path)>>>F*X(electrical input work from A to B Vertically)

F*Y - F*X = Net Residue gravitational Energy

Now this Net Residue gravitational energy should be converted into electrical energy by a sliding path energy conversion machenism which is yet to be designed.

Now this is possible because Gravity acts in a array on floor.

That means gravity is not only acting between points A and B vertically,but it is also acting at each and every other point of the zigzag path.The gravity acting on the Zigzag path is like UDL(Uniformly Distributed Load) which we use in engineering.So this gravity then acts on heavy ball when it is Slidding over this ziggag path.

And yes I am not neglecting frictional and other losses in the actual machenism.

To accomplish this Zig zag displacement along downward direction only,I have suggested to take the heavy ball up through straight vertical (through some electrical input)and let it come downward through semicircle with the centre of circumference of semicircle,being slightly extended as a slightly sharp more outward corner;so that gravitational work done to let ball slide along the curved path is more than work supplied to lift up ball in upward vertical direction.

The reasion behind stretching the semicircular downward path from the centre is to increase efficiency by providing more gravitational force to act over more increased path of travel.


I have mentioned only an idea OR Flow Process and not actual machenism,just like a Flow Chart.

The only thing left now is converting this "Flow Process" idea into a proper machenism which I have to do yet for which I need your similar help that you provided to Raj on Monday Monday!!!

You all here are welcome to convert this flow process/idea into a proper machenism.Lets invent together.


This is extremly challenging design because I need to convert Slidding Motion into Electrical energy for which I may use two sided Semiconical cross sectional paths/rails and perhaps no body or very less people might have made a two sided conical Rail design.

Note that this the actual mechanism designed most probably may not be made as a wheel.
Instead ,I may want to convert sliding motion of ball into electricity.

[eccentrically1]

To accomplish this Zig zag displacement along downward direction only,I have suggested to take the heavy ball up through straight vertical (through some electrical input)and let it come downward through semicircle with the centre of circumference of semicircle,being slightly extended as a slightly sharp more outward corner;so that gravitational work done to let ball slide along the curved path is more than work supplied to lift up ball in upward vertical direction.

The reasion behind stretching the semicircular downward path from the centre is to increase efficiency by providing more gravitational force to act over more increased path of travel.

The path the ball takes is irrelevant.

Once the ball returns to its original position, measurement should show that nothing has changed, except that it took some electrical energy to overcome friction. If your experiment, or flow concept, showed there is a difference beyond that, your measurement is in error.
Gravitational potential energy exactly equals gravitational kinetic energy.

EXACTLY.

No exceptions, even in large font.

[Aman]

The path the ball takes is irrelevant.

Once the ball returns to its original position, measurement should show that nothing has changed, except that it took some electrical energy to overcome friction. If your experiment, or flow concept, showed there is a difference beyond that, your measurement is in error.
Gravitational potential energy exactly equals gravitational kinetic energy.

EXACTLY.

No exceptions, even in large font.

Exactly,here is where most people surprisingly fail to consider that a potential and kinetic energy system lies in a whole two dimensional plane.They consider P.E to K.E only on a single vertical line,which is not at all a correct approach.

In the case of a semicircular path,it lies over a 2-Dimensional plane.
Each and every vertical Line which makes up the plane has Potential energy.
It is similar to a UDL(Uniformly distributed load) which lies over a beam.

When we say that there is a Potential between A (up)and B (down)positions of the heavy weight ball,I am not only considering that particular A-B vertical lines distances while calculating Potential Energy,but I have to also consider all such A-B vertical lines in a 2- Dimensional plane which make up the 2-Dimensional plane.

I see a misunderstanding of potential energy concept with people which say that potential energy is stored within a weight ball ONLY with the path of lifting it up.
This is only partially correct,not completely correct.

Storage of Potential energy depends on ball's position AND hence, depends on downward path through which the energy is used as Kinetic energy AND/BUT does not always depend on through which upward path you are storing Potential energy upward.

People are not considering the total potential energy consumed at each and every vertical lines in a 2-D plane and are only considering one vertical line.This is a very very Big Mistake.

Mr. Ken had really confussed me.He gave me a right engine concept but Wrong Idea that gravity is not conservative,for which I appolalise the forum at large.

""""Gravity is still a conservative force,

because in my engine concept,gravity acts on all vertical lines of a 2-D plane.Conservative forces is defined only for two point one vertical line potential systems.Whereas in my engine there are many such 2 point vertical lines which constitutes a 1-D plane."""""

[Aman]

That is why I wrote this sentence:

That means gravity is not only acting between points A and B vertically,but it is also acting at each and every other point of the zigzag path.

If what you said is correct then it would violate law of conservation of energy which is Impossible.
You can see by your eyes that a larger displacement can be covered over a Jig Jag path than that over a Straight line distance.
If what you said is correct then some magic should happen to provide balls extra energy to cover more distance than distance through which the ball was displaced upward,which cannot happen.
Do you still have any doubts?

[eccentrically1]

I never had any doubts.
Gravity's force only acts along a straight line between centers of mass.
You can zigzag in 3, or 4, 10 dimensions, if you want to. The net result will always, always be: the path between the centers of mass is irrelevant. The force is only dependent on the measurement of how much mass each object has and the distance between them.

Potential energy is energy of position, you've got that right. The path of the position either upward or downward is not part of the equation.

The path of the object is only relevant for the NON-conservative forces; the object must overcome more non - conservative frictional forces if it takes a longer zigzagging path.
Do you have doubts?

[Aman]

You are getting it a bit right now.

But....On one hand,it does not depends on shape (curviness) of Upward path(shape of upward path is irrelevant);;; but on other hand,

Case 1)If one line system is considered,then the shape of downward path will obviously be always vertical,so no question of dependiility.
OR
Case 2)If it is Multi-potential parallel lines system,then;Usable potential energy depends on downward path.

While defining Conservative force, a Single Potential line (A-B) is considered where in a conservative force is one which is independent of path taken.

Is this a bit confussing for you?

I said with respect to multi potential line system that:
"Storage of Potential energy depends on ball's position AND hence, depends on downward path through which the energy is used as Kinetic energy AND/BUT does not always depend on through which upward path you are storing Potential energy upward. "

Right!
I am considering gravity as a conservative force.

Right!
The idea is here is to expand the "gravity input Band" to input more gravitational potential energy by passing Heavy balls through Multiple Vertical lines of potentials instead of a single line of potential.I believe you understood about this 2-D formation by close parallel potential lines.