Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Moderator: scott
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Click on groups, click on non-member groups. Oystein is second from last on the list! A closed group open only to those invited or at Oystein's discretion.
As moderator he can change the settings to: Open group, Closed group, Hidden group.
Hidden groups are only listed to those who are a member. There is no way of knowing how many hidden groups exist.
As moderator he can change the settings to: Open group, Closed group, Hidden group.
Hidden groups are only listed to those who are a member. There is no way of knowing how many hidden groups exist.
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Oystein,
I found out why your site is being filtered. It deals with the occult. There is a federal mandate that libraries & schools receiving federal funds filter objectionable things like that for the sake of the children. These same children running around with their butts hanging out, tattoos & piercings, listening to rap with some of the most objectionable prose imaginable. There is a large masonic influence inside the beltway. That might explain it.
Thanks for adding me.
I found out why your site is being filtered. It deals with the occult. There is a federal mandate that libraries & schools receiving federal funds filter objectionable things like that for the sake of the children. These same children running around with their butts hanging out, tattoos & piercings, listening to rap with some of the most objectionable prose imaginable. There is a large masonic influence inside the beltway. That might explain it.
Thanks for adding me.
........................¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the future is here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Advocate of God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and redeemer of my soul.
Walter Clarkson
© 2023 Walter W. Clarkson, LLC
All rights reserved. Do not even quote me w/o my expressed written consent.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ the future is here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Advocate of God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and redeemer of my soul.
Walter Clarkson
© 2023 Walter W. Clarkson, LLC
All rights reserved. Do not even quote me w/o my expressed written consent.
- eccentrically1
- Addict
- Posts: 3133
- Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:25 pm
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Yes, but his private forum doesn't show up on the main forum index page to click there and see the forum. So something's wrong, I can see the other ones I am in.Oystein is second from last on the list!
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Ralph, your instructions aren't very helpful. You aren't (yet) a member of Oystein's group so you might not understand the problem.
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Bill,
It is true, I am not a member and may not understand the problem. That does not stop me from accessing the forum details, clicking info and counting the 13 members currently listed.
If you or others cannot open it, then I guess there is a problem that I do not understand!
@ Eccentrically1, your are #5 on the list. I could copy and post the whole link, but that is not the proper thing for me to do.
Ralph
It is true, I am not a member and may not understand the problem. That does not stop me from accessing the forum details, clicking info and counting the 13 members currently listed.
If you or others cannot open it, then I guess there is a problem that I do not understand!
@ Eccentrically1, your are #5 on the list. I could copy and post the whole link, but that is not the proper thing for me to do.
Ralph
- eccentrically1
- Addict
- Posts: 3133
- Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 10:25 pm
Re: re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Thank you! It must be that I mention "der Teufel" then. lolWaltzCee wrote:Oystein,
I found out why your site is being filtered. It deals with the occult. There is a federal mandate that libraries & schools receiving federal funds filter objectionable things like that for the sake of the children. These same children running around with their butts hanging out, tattoos & piercings, listening to rap with some of the most objectionable prose imaginable. There is a large masonic influence inside the beltway. That might explain it.
Thanks for adding me.
Or der Teuffel. Teufel sometimes was written with two f's. http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k3106873
While we wait for the forum to start working, we could look at the word Teufel versus Teuffel.
If I'm right, Gematria was heavily used, and even more the longer back in time we go. "Der 3auber Teuffel" was published in 1566 in Frankfurt Hessen Germany.
In AP, sometimes Bessler writes Teuffel. (Attached).
So we may assume that the blanks could hide the word Teuffel rather than Teufel.
In the bible quote decoding, I didn't really change u to v at will, or Euclid to Evclid, but the XV (15 books edition) is rather uncommon, because the other publications has 13 Books. This XV version has EVCLID with a latinised (IS) ending, written in Latin on the front. That is why I used Evclid, NOT Euclid.
I see it highly possible that the author, or rather the accepted use of Teuffel among authors was indeed based on the fact that by using Teuffel you signal that you understand the Gematria of T+e+u+f+f+e+l = 72 The Pentagram angles attributed to Der Teuffel.
One possible value for the - -, is Teuffel and therefore 72, a Pentagram/Pentagon. (Remember that a pentagon needed to be added to the Apologia Wheel figure, to solve it, as described by Evclid)
But because the fields are - - , this is not the only thing that belongs there. The blanks - - is a variable, demanding that more than one value fits. We must also find the answer.. The answer is not 72. Nobody would recognise 72 as the Devil's number..
The answer to this "question" is in my (still) broken forum :-)
www.orffyreuscodes.com
The truth is stranger than fiction
The truth is stranger than fiction
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Oystein after giving it some thought I took myself off your forum. Mostly I also freedom to put whatever I want on the forum community buzz. I don’t really care about who did what first, but that in the end I have control over what is public in case the two intertwine. I wish you the best of luck.
What goes around, comes around.
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
I've received a PM from an angry Oystein titled "About your unfair wordings..", saying:
If I've been unfair then I will apologise, but I've read my posts back and they sound reasonable to me. I may have spoken frankly, but I don't think I was rude. I will always be a staunch defender of good and honest Bessler research; people expect nothing less from me. I have to admit I'm annoyed by the way Oystein is behaving and how he has responded to my criticism.
What I'm observing is the typical M.O. we've seen and come to expect from certain members countless times before. Claiming success or having important information, dangling carrots of information but claiming to be holding back other information, looking for some validation of their ideas or even help, but becoming angry and defensive when their work is challenged. Insulting the intelligence of other members when challenged. Also insulting education & scholars if they don't support their work. While I agree that education/scholars don't always hold all the answers, they should not be casually dismissed. A wise man once said:
"It's a strategy to level the rhetoric playfield. Fools with nothing to show use it to justify their nonsense. They think attacking education gives their dumb ideas more legitimacy."
Now I'm hoping that what I've just described really isn't what is going on with you Oystein, but I'm just pointing out that is how you're coming across.
My advice would be to take more time and be more careful how you present things. You've got to give us a reason to take you seriously. Just being an old member of the forum doesn't give you an automatic pass.
What is it you are trying to achieve by posting this information now? Are you just doing it to entertain us or yourself? Are you using us as guinea pigs to see how the information is received? Are you looking for help in completing a working wheel? Please could you clarify?
You appear to be uninterested in listening to anyone who challenges your information or in considering the possibility that you may be wrong about certain things. In which case, why would you post this on a discussion forum?
I'm entitled to post my comments, and in fact I think it's important that I do to provide the balanced view that you're not providing. However, when I do, you call me "unintelligent and sour". Perhaps I am sour (maybe with good reason), but you know I'm not "unintelligent".
Again, the main thing that annoyed me was the way you painted the versicle to be some strange, never-before-seen, "magic" symbol of Bessler's. You now admit that you knew it to be the commonly used versicle symbol, so that could be considered biased reporting to lend weight to your theory.
I'd still like to see the evidence that Bessler added the names Johann and Ernst later in life, wouldn't you? Perhaps John could provide the evidence as that isn't something I've seen or looked into yet.
Now let's consider the Bible verse references, or "headers" as you like to call them. [Jacobi (James) III vs 14, 15, 16] Why only 14, 15, 16? He could have included the final two verses: 17 & 18, or the prior verse 13. You obviously think he picked these numbers in order to be able to arrive at 55. In order to decide that though, you'd have to study the verses and surrounding verses and see if they could have been selected on their message alone. Let's have a look:
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Everyone can decide themselves, but for me verses 14, 15 & 16 seem the most powerful and relevant. When considering the meaning of those three verses, it becomes harder to believe that Bessler could also have intended you to take the book, chapter and three verse reference and be able to come up with the number 55. The odds are even higher when you consider the Matthew reference as well.
On the title page we read:
"By ORFFYRE in haste
self made in two parts,
and upon desires great people
communicated at the time,
that he must ask his enemies
SeyDIhrDañaVChnoChVnVerstänDIg
[are you then also yet without understanding]
from Matth. 15 vs. 16"
It says he must ask his enemies "are you then also yet without understanding?" Why just his enemies? It makes perfect sense when you read that part of the Bible and the message could be summarised as: Do you Christians not understand that by speaking evil and slander about me you are defiling yourselves?
That seems a perfect message for the title page of his defensive writing (AP), and he must have been delighted he could get the chronogram for the year 1717 out of the words "are you then also yet without understanding". That's a great coincidence in itself, so we have to question how likely it would be that he could also have intended Euclid's name to replace Matthew's and then apply an unorthodox gematria to arrive at the number 55.
Anyway, let people decided for themselves, but at least fair judgement can be made when given the complete picture.
The typeface used there is called 'Schwabacher' and is a blackletter typeface which evolved from Gothic Textura in Italy during the 15th century. It was the most common typeface in Germany until being replaced from the mid 16th century by the Fraktur typeface. Fraktur is the main typeface used in AP, with Schwabacher being used for bolding. This was a common thing to do at that time, and there are many books available online showing Schwabacher used for bolding. A few of the capital letters in the Schwabacher typeface do look a bit strange when you first come across them in AP, almost Hebrew-esque. There is more than one place in AP where bolded passages happen to contain two capital 'H's. The example given by Oystein shows Bessler bolding the words for Heaven and Hell, which like the English words also both begin with 'H': Himmel und Hölle. So, just to be clear: Bessler had no influence on the look of the 'H' character used here from the old Schwabacher typeface, and there is nothing out of the ordinary about what he has done here. However, we can't rule out the possibility of there perhaps being some Rosicrucian influence on the original design of the typeface.
https://centauro996.wordpress.com/¿que ... masoneria/
https://europaolympica56.com/quienes-somos/
http://dialogo-entre-masones.blogspot.c ... neria.html
https://silenciollama.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... tas-y.html
Which appear to have taken the image from the cover of this 2007 book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Laccademia-log ... 8884741394
I'm not sure what the origin of the painting is.
Someone has added the text over the top of the image using a computer. However, the main point I want to make, although I see others have now also pointed it out, is the use of the upside down question mark. The text is in Spanish, and in Spanish writing, sentences that are questions always begin with an upside-down question mark and end with a normal question mark: ¿Qué es la masonerÃa?
So this added text is definitely not suggesting you turn the image upside-down.
Education can be useful!
https://www.hippostcard.com/search?keyw ... HARDT+WALL
The image is highly likely to be a satirical work, like the rest of the cartoons depicting baby masons. Although there are examples of masons producing satirical works about their movement (read this blog entry: https://drdavidharrison.blogspot.co.uk/ ... toons.html ), I've not managed to find any information supporting the notion that Bernhardt Wall was a mason. I didn't spend too long looking, so he could be, but Oystein should hopefully be able to provide the evidence.
Another cartoonist from the same time period as Bernhardt and also produced ranges featuring children and babies, was called August Hutaf, and he too did some masonic related cartoons:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22au ... =isch&sa=X
It's ironic that you've chosen a humorous cartoon satire of the masons as your avatar!
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=8925
More examples are things like your claim that the AP watermark has the letters Cr, when in fact you haven't recognised that you're looking at the Fleur-de-Lis image upside down and the letters are actually CL!
http://orffyreuscodes.com/a
Having made that mistake you make this claim:
There is no such "special 'o'" in any version of DT I've ever seen, and I've held several copies in my own hands, and looked at every online copy.
Hopefully everyone can appreciate that this quality of research falls far sort of the high standards I work to and that we should all be setting ourselves, and why I'm not interested.
Look, I really hope you have discovered something (even if your process has lead to you stumbling across the answer, then it was worth while), and you may well be holding back on your best research. I will be the first to congratulate you on any concrete information that leads to a working wheel. I wish you the best of luck.
Stewart
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 637#149637
Where have I said that? Please give a quote. Does anyone else think I've treated Oystein unfairly?Oystein wrote:you publicly attack me and straight out call me a liar and "a jerk".
If I've been unfair then I will apologise, but I've read my posts back and they sound reasonable to me. I may have spoken frankly, but I don't think I was rude. I will always be a staunch defender of good and honest Bessler research; people expect nothing less from me. I have to admit I'm annoyed by the way Oystein is behaving and how he has responded to my criticism.
What I'm observing is the typical M.O. we've seen and come to expect from certain members countless times before. Claiming success or having important information, dangling carrots of information but claiming to be holding back other information, looking for some validation of their ideas or even help, but becoming angry and defensive when their work is challenged. Insulting the intelligence of other members when challenged. Also insulting education & scholars if they don't support their work. While I agree that education/scholars don't always hold all the answers, they should not be casually dismissed. A wise man once said:
"It's a strategy to level the rhetoric playfield. Fools with nothing to show use it to justify their nonsense. They think attacking education gives their dumb ideas more legitimacy."
Now I'm hoping that what I've just described really isn't what is going on with you Oystein, but I'm just pointing out that is how you're coming across.
My advice would be to take more time and be more careful how you present things. You've got to give us a reason to take you seriously. Just being an old member of the forum doesn't give you an automatic pass.
What is it you are trying to achieve by posting this information now? Are you just doing it to entertain us or yourself? Are you using us as guinea pigs to see how the information is received? Are you looking for help in completing a working wheel? Please could you clarify?
You appear to be uninterested in listening to anyone who challenges your information or in considering the possibility that you may be wrong about certain things. In which case, why would you post this on a discussion forum?
I'm entitled to post my comments, and in fact I think it's important that I do to provide the balanced view that you're not providing. However, when I do, you call me "unintelligent and sour". Perhaps I am sour (maybe with good reason), but you know I'm not "unintelligent".
I can assure you I read it very carefully and in fact wrote a detailed response to it, but in the end I decided not to post it. You don't get to dictate to people how they should respond to your posts. Don't post if you don't want a discussion.Oystein wrote:You come out at me, just like I warned against in the first leading post. Like you didn't read it or care.
Knowing that I am an intelligent and good researcher and I've criticised some of your work is clearly what is upsetting you. If I've started out "in the wrong end of it all", who's fault is that?Oystein wrote:It's not so much that I am offended, but I am a little chocked that you, of all, that originally appeared as an intelligent and good researcher would start out in the wrong end of it all.
The versicle is not built from an I and a V. Look at the symbol more closely - I'm surprised you've not commented on the resemblance to the square and compass.Oystein wrote:You can't attack for mention that I noticed the fact that if versicle (℣) has a hidden Gematria value of 4 (can be supported by the fact that is built from a I and a V).
It's true that if you take the leap of making ℣=4 and apply digit sum to the numbers you would get 3-4-5-6-7.Oystein wrote:I mentioned it was first noticed that if ℣ is 4. then the first Bible ref. has a numerical evenly distributed numerical pattern of 3-4-5-6-7, if digit sum was used. True?
Again, the main thing that annoyed me was the way you painted the versicle to be some strange, never-before-seen, "magic" symbol of Bessler's. You now admit that you knew it to be the commonly used versicle symbol, so that could be considered biased reporting to lend weight to your theory.
So you're now the innocent victim who's being bullied because people have challenged the validity of your work? We can only judge your work based on what you've posted. If it doesn't hold up to scrutiny, whose fault is that? Perhaps you should have taken more time and care with what you posted.Oystein wrote:Then you start to bash me, and that makes it possible for other to tag along. Now I am the dog, with the broken leg. Bite him... This was done even after i explicitly said that you shouldn't. I didn't have time to present all my work!!
You're doing something here never before seen in any other examples of applying gematria to words. Please give one single other example of someone taking i=1, z=2 and v=5, while all other letters keep their normal gematria count. I don't think Bessler or anyone would consider that valid gematria.Oystein wrote:Then you attack me from telling what values I put on Gematria letters.
Do you think I come out here, expose my work, and have manipulated values at will??
E+r+n+s+t = 72
E+l+i/1+a+s = 36
A Pentagram Triangle angles. My imagination? Or Bessler secret reason for adding Ernst to Elias?
I'd still like to see the evidence that Bessler added the names Johann and Ernst later in life, wouldn't you? Perhaps John could provide the evidence as that isn't something I've seen or looked into yet.
I've not denied that a '1' is often depicted with a dot above it, as you'll see if you re-read what I wrote. Bessler always dotted his '1's and it's commonly seen done all over the place. Is it however then safe to assume whenever you see an actual 'i' that it means '1'?Oystein wrote:i = 1 was normal use in Germany. You should know from your own research.
I would like to attach another example from Germany. 1649 is written as i649 on a Castle gate!
i = 9
And the sad thing is that you of all should know this, but you nearly call me liar and compare me to Novel writers and fiction.
Now let's consider the Bible verse references, or "headers" as you like to call them. [Jacobi (James) III vs 14, 15, 16] Why only 14, 15, 16? He could have included the final two verses: 17 & 18, or the prior verse 13. You obviously think he picked these numbers in order to be able to arrive at 55. In order to decide that though, you'd have to study the verses and surrounding verses and see if they could have been selected on their message alone. Let's have a look:
13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
Everyone can decide themselves, but for me verses 14, 15 & 16 seem the most powerful and relevant. When considering the meaning of those three verses, it becomes harder to believe that Bessler could also have intended you to take the book, chapter and three verse reference and be able to come up with the number 55. The odds are even higher when you consider the Matthew reference as well.
On the title page we read:
"By ORFFYRE in haste
self made in two parts,
and upon desires great people
communicated at the time,
that he must ask his enemies
SeyDIhrDañaVChnoChVnVerstänDIg
[are you then also yet without understanding]
from Matth. 15 vs. 16"
It says he must ask his enemies "are you then also yet without understanding?" Why just his enemies? It makes perfect sense when you read that part of the Bible and the message could be summarised as: Do you Christians not understand that by speaking evil and slander about me you are defiling yourselves?
That seems a perfect message for the title page of his defensive writing (AP), and he must have been delighted he could get the chronogram for the year 1717 out of the words "are you then also yet without understanding". That's a great coincidence in itself, so we have to question how likely it would be that he could also have intended Euclid's name to replace Matthew's and then apply an unorthodox gematria to arrive at the number 55.
Anyway, let people decided for themselves, but at least fair judgement can be made when given the complete picture.
Just to provide some background on the 'H' character that resembles a '5':Oystein wrote:... and that the letters HH could be written as 55. (See 88 written as HH in attachment, collected from AP)
The typeface used there is called 'Schwabacher' and is a blackletter typeface which evolved from Gothic Textura in Italy during the 15th century. It was the most common typeface in Germany until being replaced from the mid 16th century by the Fraktur typeface. Fraktur is the main typeface used in AP, with Schwabacher being used for bolding. This was a common thing to do at that time, and there are many books available online showing Schwabacher used for bolding. A few of the capital letters in the Schwabacher typeface do look a bit strange when you first come across them in AP, almost Hebrew-esque. There is more than one place in AP where bolded passages happen to contain two capital 'H's. The example given by Oystein shows Bessler bolding the words for Heaven and Hell, which like the English words also both begin with 'H': Himmel und Hölle. So, just to be clear: Bessler had no influence on the look of the 'H' character used here from the old Schwabacher typeface, and there is nothing out of the ordinary about what he has done here. However, we can't rule out the possibility of there perhaps being some Rosicrucian influence on the original design of the typeface.
Here you've taken an image shown on these websites:Oystein wrote:?What is Masonry? Take note of the upside down question mark... "
https://centauro996.wordpress.com/¿que ... masoneria/
https://europaolympica56.com/quienes-somos/
http://dialogo-entre-masones.blogspot.c ... neria.html
https://silenciollama.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... tas-y.html
Which appear to have taken the image from the cover of this 2007 book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Laccademia-log ... 8884741394
I'm not sure what the origin of the painting is.
Someone has added the text over the top of the image using a computer. However, the main point I want to make, although I see others have now also pointed it out, is the use of the upside down question mark. The text is in Spanish, and in Spanish writing, sentences that are questions always begin with an upside-down question mark and end with a normal question mark: ¿Qué es la masonerÃa?
So this added text is definitely not suggesting you turn the image upside-down.
Education can be useful!
The image Oystein is using for his avatar is by Bernhardt Wall (1872-1956), an American historian and illustrator. He was well known for his cartoon artwork of children and babies depicted in adult roles. See this link:Oystein wrote:If you take notice, first of the top circle of my hat, then look at my medallion...
You see, a standing pentagon framed in a circle, is in a way the first simple "Baby-steps" to the Masonic Square and compass.
https://www.hippostcard.com/search?keyw ... HARDT+WALL
The image is highly likely to be a satirical work, like the rest of the cartoons depicting baby masons. Although there are examples of masons producing satirical works about their movement (read this blog entry: https://drdavidharrison.blogspot.co.uk/ ... toons.html ), I've not managed to find any information supporting the notion that Bernhardt Wall was a mason. I didn't spend too long looking, so he could be, but Oystein should hopefully be able to provide the evidence.
Another cartoonist from the same time period as Bernhardt and also produced ranges featuring children and babies, was called August Hutaf, and he too did some masonic related cartoons:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22au ... =isch&sa=X
Oystein wrote:Again...look at my hat! (It is a default Masonic figure. It's the AP Wheel drawn by some masonic artist. The AP Wheel was not Bessler's own invention, but yet another way to say 3 and 5 and point to the Euclid formula, as others did, ref. Albrecht Durer and some mason..)
Please show an example of another depiction of the AP wheel image being "a classic masonic illustration". The image in the top hat is no evidence at all. First of all none of the angles match the AP wheel, and second what you are interpreting as something unusual in the top of the hat is just a very normal depiction of the light reflecting off of one. The concentric-circular grooves produce what look like rays coming out from the centre as is seen with a vinyl record (see the attached image of a top hat as an example).Oystein wrote:Don't you see that my hat is a classic masonic illustration, showing you the "AP wheel"? The illustration was never Bessler's own invention, it was and is a known way to hide the classical 3 5 formula of Euclid.
The hat does not contain the AP wheel. Are you seriously concluding that the AP wheel image is "a default masonic secret" because you've seen a vague likeness in a satirical masonic cartoon from around the 1900s? Even if you can show Bernhardt Wall to be a mason, the top hat shine is still extremely unlikely to have any relevance. Also the likelihood a cartoon illustrator would give away any masonic secrets in this way is highly unlikely.Oystein wrote:When I say "Look at my hat" I assume everybody see that the hat contains "The AP Wheel" and thus is a default masonic secret. The picture is not of me, but a Masonic baby, drawn by some masonic artist :-) And the baby must be a symbol of how simple this is. 3 and 5 and so forth, this is such simple stuff..That is why there are many baby in diapers building pyramids or showing masonic figures..
Oystein wrote:And the baby must be a symbol of how simple this is.
Why would you think that? The babies have been drawn by various illustrators known for their cartoon humour and for depicting babies and children in adult situations.Oystein wrote:Attached pictures is about how simple it is!
Oystein wrote:This thread was to build stable bricks (as in the baby building a pyramid), and show how simple it was to slowly climb on Jacob's ladder.. (literally speaking this time)!
It's ironic that you've chosen a humorous cartoon satire of the masons as your avatar!
I can confirm that 'Teufel' is spelt both ways in AP. It's 'Teufel..' 6 times, and 'Teuffel..' 11 times.Oystein wrote:Or der Teuffel. Teufel sometimes was written with two f's.
Actually it was me that first suggested that (although I'm starting to regret it!), and John had these wise words for me which I do agree with:Oystein wrote:As John Collins noticed:
TeVfeL.--> V+L (Masonry)
It's very easy to find 55 if you're look hard enough to find it in everything. Ed noticed that even John Collins' interview in Infinite Energy magazine ended up on page 55!John Collins wrote:The results of applying chronogram techniques to the missing words should be viewed with caution because, unlike arabic numerals which are composed of nine numbers from 1 to 9, Roman numerals are composed of only three numbers from 1 to 9 i.e. I, V and X (IX). So in any instance where you have a collection of these three numbers you will show a weighting of V and I. When you add the fact that 5 can be obtained from U and W and V, but a number containing 1, 2, 3 or 4 can be produced from only 'I', the chances of revealing the number 5 must be increased .
Conclusion there may be some other reason unconnected with chronograms for excluding some words.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/download.php?id=8925
Thanks, but no thanks! I'm not interested, and you'll be better off without me poking holes in everything anyway. It takes far too long to sort the wheat from the chaff, and so far I've not been left with any wheat. My advice to you is get rid of all the chaff and see what you're actually left with!Oystein wrote:I have opened a private forum where I show where the code leads, and if you talk to me in a sivill tone, and intelligent manner, you can join to see where it is heading..
More examples are things like your claim that the AP watermark has the letters Cr, when in fact you haven't recognised that you're looking at the Fleur-de-Lis image upside down and the letters are actually CL!
http://orffyreuscodes.com/a
Having made that mistake you make this claim:
Or there's this:Oystein wrote:My research has proven those watermarks to be a part of a secret intellectual quest for the Masonic Holy Grail.
http://orffyreuscodes.com/strange-symbolsOystein wrote:In the second picture of the Kassel wheel (Secunda Figura/Die andere Figur) there appear to be some strange markings in the top center of the drawing. As usual, unusual writings has their reasons.
.
.
The first is a special "o",
.
.
Again, we have documented their purpose, as they are placed there to confirm the existence and appearance of the Orffyrean Code.
There is no such "special 'o'" in any version of DT I've ever seen, and I've held several copies in my own hands, and looked at every online copy.
Hopefully everyone can appreciate that this quality of research falls far sort of the high standards I work to and that we should all be setting ourselves, and why I'm not interested.
Look, I really hope you have discovered something (even if your process has lead to you stumbling across the answer, then it was worth while), and you may well be holding back on your best research. I will be the first to congratulate you on any concrete information that leads to a working wheel. I wish you the best of luck.
Stewart
http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewt ... 637#149637
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
The above describes every single instance of deceptive (self or otherwise) behaviour on this forum.Stewart wrote:...Claiming success or having important information, dangling carrots of information but claiming to be holding back other information, looking for some validation of their ideas or even help, but becoming angry and defensive when their work is challenged. Insulting the intelligence of other members when challenged. Also insulting education & scholars if they don't support their work...
Thanks for your input, Stewart, as always.
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Stewart. Almost all things used by Bessler was in use. As I showed that all these font types was used in Der 3auber Teuffel
In here I also show things that is outside of my proof based research, but things that could make you look outside of Bessler's work and onto others. Like Der 3auber Teuffel. If you do, you will see that the blanked word on the AP page could be Teuffel and not Teufel. Why is that important? The latter gives the pentagram angles value of 72 when Gematria is applied.. At this stage, a mere observation!
The problem with your "attitude" is then, that you would never discover that! It's not for you to see. You are really not curious of why Bessler added - - where Teuffel could be written.
About the top hat, it is NOT part of my research. I could never prove that the hat is built from other than a circle and 3, but I point to things like that to encourage you to start you look around! You didn't think I was enlarging and measuring the top hat, as proof based research?? I want people to wonder..look around..be open..curious.. then much later.. dismiss. Not now!
If I am right, Bessler and many others before, and after him, used Gematria based on the Alphabet value. If I am right many before and after him turned things upside down, some for a reason others because others did. You can't disprove the latter by the existence of the former..
So attached is another, not proof, but a qualified guess, of why I think the letter 5 was chosen as a font for H. Long before Bessler, we know! That it was already used, doesn't mean that Bessler couldn't have know about an original hidden or double meaning. This is not written on Wikipedia, so of course you would NOT agree! And because you have refuted that Bessler used Alphabet Gematria (Adding the alphabet value of letters, you could never discover nor approve the attached). If it was on Wikipedia, you would say, but of course!! It's actually beautiful how "14 becomes 5".
My son age 7 showed me the attached. Everytime he wrote 14 he wrote H.
So then, Why does Masonic babies build pyramids?
You would say it's just a drawing of a baby playing with cubic bricks..what else could it mean? "They just happened to fall into that specific pattern." Of course it is unheard of that masonic secrets, leads to a secret of the pyramids....
You say that finding L an V representing the square and compass and the number 55 is not cool at all. It's crap. And L and V matching the pyramid formula based on the square number sequence of 12 and 345 = 50 + 5 = LV is not a good observation at all!
So let's assume that babies don't build real pyramids..but grown ups do. Take a look at the attached mysterious modern pyramid of Kazakhstan.
The standing triangles is by the number 5-4-3 and 2 -1
Since this is pyramid we get: the square of 1-2 = 5 or V and the square of 3-4-5 = 50 or L. The total number is the square of 1-2-3-4-5- = 55 or LV.
It is a rumour that this pyramid is a "Masonic" pyramid. I don't know where that comes from... Stewart says no!
According to you, nobody know about this squared 12 and 345 formula, right?
Basically, it all comes down to you refuting the first step! The baby step that I say that Bessler, printers and writers knew and used alphabet value Gematria to tell a second message. Then you actually wrote, that you knew people used it... so what you actually refute is that I found that i is 1. But you can't refute it because in MT he writes 11 as ii and on the Castle Gates you saw it, and when using it in his name they becomes the pentagram angles...
If you refute that, and that Bessler may have used i as 1 as shown at German Castle Gates and in MT, to construct his new middle name, then this certainly is not for you! And if you accept it, then next step must follow! WHY did he? It is certainly much easier to say no, just like you. It will save you a LOT of work to refute! It's the easy thing to do. But the easy way is not always the best way.
And you are right, I have not shown my technical nor best research here, but shown you some byproducts of my work. I just wanted to show how my best work led me to "the secret of the Apologia Wheel Page". I found this because I found the RC secret. And I didn't find the first part of that code myself, but I read a book you know, and saw a 4 part documentary about it. You have never read it, it's in Norwegian. That person, was a "junior mason" and first spent over 10 years discovering an English RC basic code applied to a known book. Based on Pythagoras, the square of 3-4-5 and Gematria by alphabetic values. If I said NO to this, I could go on happily and get money and food to my family, but I received the message, and then tried it out. Most if it was true. And gave valuable insight.
Z and H written as 3 and 5 in this book, over 50 years before Bessler!
In here I also show things that is outside of my proof based research, but things that could make you look outside of Bessler's work and onto others. Like Der 3auber Teuffel. If you do, you will see that the blanked word on the AP page could be Teuffel and not Teufel. Why is that important? The latter gives the pentagram angles value of 72 when Gematria is applied.. At this stage, a mere observation!
The problem with your "attitude" is then, that you would never discover that! It's not for you to see. You are really not curious of why Bessler added - - where Teuffel could be written.
About the top hat, it is NOT part of my research. I could never prove that the hat is built from other than a circle and 3, but I point to things like that to encourage you to start you look around! You didn't think I was enlarging and measuring the top hat, as proof based research?? I want people to wonder..look around..be open..curious.. then much later.. dismiss. Not now!
If I am right, Bessler and many others before, and after him, used Gematria based on the Alphabet value. If I am right many before and after him turned things upside down, some for a reason others because others did. You can't disprove the latter by the existence of the former..
So attached is another, not proof, but a qualified guess, of why I think the letter 5 was chosen as a font for H. Long before Bessler, we know! That it was already used, doesn't mean that Bessler couldn't have know about an original hidden or double meaning. This is not written on Wikipedia, so of course you would NOT agree! And because you have refuted that Bessler used Alphabet Gematria (Adding the alphabet value of letters, you could never discover nor approve the attached). If it was on Wikipedia, you would say, but of course!! It's actually beautiful how "14 becomes 5".
My son age 7 showed me the attached. Everytime he wrote 14 he wrote H.
So then, Why does Masonic babies build pyramids?
You would say it's just a drawing of a baby playing with cubic bricks..what else could it mean? "They just happened to fall into that specific pattern." Of course it is unheard of that masonic secrets, leads to a secret of the pyramids....
You say that finding L an V representing the square and compass and the number 55 is not cool at all. It's crap. And L and V matching the pyramid formula based on the square number sequence of 12 and 345 = 50 + 5 = LV is not a good observation at all!
So let's assume that babies don't build real pyramids..but grown ups do. Take a look at the attached mysterious modern pyramid of Kazakhstan.
The standing triangles is by the number 5-4-3 and 2 -1
Since this is pyramid we get: the square of 1-2 = 5 or V and the square of 3-4-5 = 50 or L. The total number is the square of 1-2-3-4-5- = 55 or LV.
It is a rumour that this pyramid is a "Masonic" pyramid. I don't know where that comes from... Stewart says no!
According to you, nobody know about this squared 12 and 345 formula, right?
Basically, it all comes down to you refuting the first step! The baby step that I say that Bessler, printers and writers knew and used alphabet value Gematria to tell a second message. Then you actually wrote, that you knew people used it... so what you actually refute is that I found that i is 1. But you can't refute it because in MT he writes 11 as ii and on the Castle Gates you saw it, and when using it in his name they becomes the pentagram angles...
If you refute that, and that Bessler may have used i as 1 as shown at German Castle Gates and in MT, to construct his new middle name, then this certainly is not for you! And if you accept it, then next step must follow! WHY did he? It is certainly much easier to say no, just like you. It will save you a LOT of work to refute! It's the easy thing to do. But the easy way is not always the best way.
And you are right, I have not shown my technical nor best research here, but shown you some byproducts of my work. I just wanted to show how my best work led me to "the secret of the Apologia Wheel Page". I found this because I found the RC secret. And I didn't find the first part of that code myself, but I read a book you know, and saw a 4 part documentary about it. You have never read it, it's in Norwegian. That person, was a "junior mason" and first spent over 10 years discovering an English RC basic code applied to a known book. Based on Pythagoras, the square of 3-4-5 and Gematria by alphabetic values. If I said NO to this, I could go on happily and get money and food to my family, but I received the message, and then tried it out. Most if it was true. And gave valuable insight.
Last edited by Oystein on Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
www.orffyreuscodes.com
The truth is stranger than fiction
The truth is stranger than fiction
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
So the question in this thread really comes down to:
Did I or did I not in my private forum deduce the correct devil's number by the described methods on the AP page?
Meaning that Euclid's formula contains the answer?
Yes, no doubt?
Most likely?
Don't seems like it?
No?
Unheard of?
Did I or did I not in my private forum deduce the correct devil's number by the described methods on the AP page?
Meaning that Euclid's formula contains the answer?
Yes, no doubt?
Most likely?
Don't seems like it?
No?
Unheard of?
www.orffyreuscodes.com
The truth is stranger than fiction
The truth is stranger than fiction
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Quote Stewart:
Insulting the intelligence of other members when challenged
When people tell me that I am seeing things that is not there, meaning I am delusional and say that I am working with fiction (basically unintelligent or even lies fabricated in my own mind) I think that this actually is you insulting me, when challenged by my proposals.
That we speak different languages doesn't help. You say my work is in error because I name a "letter" by the wrong terms and so on. I don't have the time to go into depths here, and even writing an "alien" language to me.
We put very different things into this.
You are after refuting things I haven't presented yet! And I said I will not now.
And when I explain where a thing comes from, because you "demand" it, you say:
"Why didn¨t you say so in the first place..."
That is because I said clearly that I have not got time nor intentions now. This also show why you shouldn't jump to conclusions. Let it cool, be curious. Play with it... that was my intentions here..and you misinterpreted me. I am sorry that I don't have the time you would like, to go into depths about narrow subjects. That is why I wrote what I wrote in the first post! I regret even posting here without working full time as a scholar and university teacher in Bessler's codes. Not so many of them are there?
Why couldn't you just say: Oh sorry, I was jumping at conclusions. The i = 1 in Bessler's Middle names, in MT 11 and the Castle Gates seem reasonable, and shouldn't be scorned. Nice find that can't be refuted in minutes. In my mind this is intelligence, both logical and social, and opens up to a conversation between equals, rather than this.. By your statements you say that you in minutes can achieve more than I have done in 15 years. To me that is an insult of my intelligence. Even though you say I am insulting you'r intelligence..how come..
If you said the above, "A nice find that can't be refuted in minutes." THEN would I say; you'r welcome, and I would think: so you are a nice, polite and wise guy after all..let's communicate This is what normally happens when people interact..
Of course I understand everything you write, and I have said it to myself many times before you, because I am my own worst critique, and that is why this has taken so many years, and more years to come.
You'r input has added nothing new to me, that I have not already been through endless of times. That is why I get so tired of the "same same"... I apologize for getting tired. My language barrier, parenting and lack of time to repeat the basic here on individual requests makes it hard to fulfill those wishes and demands.. Because of my lack of time and energy I wanted to jump ahead to the fun stuff...I apologize
I see no end to this, and would like to terminate our conversations in public.
You are free to send me Private Messages, that I of course would keep private, and not make public without consulting you.
Best
ØR
Insulting the intelligence of other members when challenged
When people tell me that I am seeing things that is not there, meaning I am delusional and say that I am working with fiction (basically unintelligent or even lies fabricated in my own mind) I think that this actually is you insulting me, when challenged by my proposals.
That we speak different languages doesn't help. You say my work is in error because I name a "letter" by the wrong terms and so on. I don't have the time to go into depths here, and even writing an "alien" language to me.
We put very different things into this.
You are after refuting things I haven't presented yet! And I said I will not now.
And when I explain where a thing comes from, because you "demand" it, you say:
"Why didn¨t you say so in the first place..."
That is because I said clearly that I have not got time nor intentions now. This also show why you shouldn't jump to conclusions. Let it cool, be curious. Play with it... that was my intentions here..and you misinterpreted me. I am sorry that I don't have the time you would like, to go into depths about narrow subjects. That is why I wrote what I wrote in the first post! I regret even posting here without working full time as a scholar and university teacher in Bessler's codes. Not so many of them are there?
Why couldn't you just say: Oh sorry, I was jumping at conclusions. The i = 1 in Bessler's Middle names, in MT 11 and the Castle Gates seem reasonable, and shouldn't be scorned. Nice find that can't be refuted in minutes. In my mind this is intelligence, both logical and social, and opens up to a conversation between equals, rather than this.. By your statements you say that you in minutes can achieve more than I have done in 15 years. To me that is an insult of my intelligence. Even though you say I am insulting you'r intelligence..how come..
If you said the above, "A nice find that can't be refuted in minutes." THEN would I say; you'r welcome, and I would think: so you are a nice, polite and wise guy after all..let's communicate This is what normally happens when people interact..
Of course I understand everything you write, and I have said it to myself many times before you, because I am my own worst critique, and that is why this has taken so many years, and more years to come.
You'r input has added nothing new to me, that I have not already been through endless of times. That is why I get so tired of the "same same"... I apologize for getting tired. My language barrier, parenting and lack of time to repeat the basic here on individual requests makes it hard to fulfill those wishes and demands.. Because of my lack of time and energy I wanted to jump ahead to the fun stuff...I apologize
I see no end to this, and would like to terminate our conversations in public.
You are free to send me Private Messages, that I of course would keep private, and not make public without consulting you.
Best
ØR
www.orffyreuscodes.com
The truth is stranger than fiction
The truth is stranger than fiction
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
By the way, this Rosicrucian watermark found in Shakespeare (attached) and another found in Francis Bacon's works seems to show 1+2+3+4+5 = 15 (in a triangle of 5 grapes)
Then IF it is not a one dimensional stack of grapes, because that would be impossible, but, let's say a pyramid it shows:1'2+2'2+3'2+4'2+5'2 = 55 grapes, on a wine mug (France?) with the initials CR, the same letters as in the watermark of Bessler's Apologia..
So could the authors of Shakespeare and Bacon's works have something in common with Bessler's work?
Was all three preserving the Rosicrucian legacy and methods?
So enough of the Pyramids now, they are there, but is there a secret about them preserved through time, hidden in art and literature?
This is also what the "Apologia Wheel Page" (and book) is about!
For now, this is how much I will tell, discuss or defend.
You see the figures..they are there..they meant something for someone..and someone still knows what..
Then IF it is not a one dimensional stack of grapes, because that would be impossible, but, let's say a pyramid it shows:1'2+2'2+3'2+4'2+5'2 = 55 grapes, on a wine mug (France?) with the initials CR, the same letters as in the watermark of Bessler's Apologia..
So could the authors of Shakespeare and Bacon's works have something in common with Bessler's work?
Was all three preserving the Rosicrucian legacy and methods?
So enough of the Pyramids now, they are there, but is there a secret about them preserved through time, hidden in art and literature?
This is also what the "Apologia Wheel Page" (and book) is about!
For now, this is how much I will tell, discuss or defend.
You see the figures..they are there..they meant something for someone..and someone still knows what..
www.orffyreuscodes.com
The truth is stranger than fiction
The truth is stranger than fiction
re: Cracking Apologia "Wheel Page"
Layers 1,2,3,4,5,6 having resp. 1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21 grapes in each layer should accumulate to resp. 1, 4, 10, 20, 35, 56 grapes in total.
(Eat the top grape)
(Eat the top grape)
Marchello E.
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---
-- May the force lift you up. In case it doesn't, try something else.---