Bessler's riddle explained!

[AlanR]

Hmmm very interesting....
but I also feel somewhat left behind here...

[Patrick]

...

[VergingOnDone]

Hi folks, here to reply about some further information I just discerned, now when witnesses said there were 8 knocks a revolution, here's what i came to realize. My design or drawing with 8 spokes can at any one time contain only 6 weights or balls it doesn't fit with any more....
EDIT----
[SO THE REVELATION IS BESSLER HAD A 10 SPOKE WHEEL!
How did I come up with this you ask? His diagram of MT 138 has 10 spacers in the segments thus only allowing 8 yes 8 weights to be used. I really think we're on to something here! Tell me what you guys think?]
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EDIT-Okay nevermind I had a brain fart I think that's crap it would give you 10 knocks then, man I was on a roll there for a second but I need to figure out about the 10 segments on the MT 138 like how there are 10 movements to the increments of one revolution, but only 6 weights, that would leave 5 to move as one fell -maybe there are only 5 segments after all! Okay I thinking out loud here, but the scissor jack would move the five remaining the distance only a small amount from the downward force of the sixth. I'm brain fizzling here would that mean the jack would lever the and move the bottom most ball only a little or the smallest increment on the jack then the next one would lift it slightly higher because now its closer to the center and so on until there is hardly any resistance and a large push as the ball nears level or horizontal. What do you think about that?

Johnathan the MT 138 is flipped upsidedown, the MT 1 doesn't have to be and the decline is well just see my 2nd drawing.

[Patrick]

...

[Stewart]

Hi Verge

Welcome to the board and to the wonderful world of Bessler - sleepless nights, doodling on napkins, endless model making etc awaits you! :) Well done with your ideas so far - I like the idea of turning the MT138 page upside down, although I'm not convinced that there is an eye on the spinning top (I think its an eliptical hole showing something inside). When you mentioned turning things upsidedown, you reminded me that there are a few things in MT that are upsidedown:

1) In the original MT13 the letters are all upsidedown (or is the whole image upsidedown?).

2) MT113 is upsidedown - its on the same page as MT110-112 which are all up the right way. There might be some connection with MT113 and the images marked A & B on the toy page. I've made an image of MT113 and I've attached it to this post so you know what I'm talking about (I've turned it the 'right' way up). What do you think?

Anyway, I must sign off now - good luck with your ideas and thanks for renewing my enthusiasm - although I will probably be awake all night thinking!

All the best
Stewart

[VergingOnDone]

Hi Verge;
I am not sure why you feel the design you posted could not have 8 weights. Is it because the weights 'catch up' to each other and bump into each other? It seems that each section could have one weight but maybe I am overlooking something about your concept. Please elaborate.
--Patrick

Yeah here let me post a diagram, and in conjuction with the lifting of the lever jack and with the counterweight that swings is the full answer. I still don't know how to translate that into a ball dropping

[Jonathan]

I get it now! So I will think about it and then I will build a model if it seems worth it.
Man this thread moves fast.

[Stewart]

There are two MT1 images in MT - one with and one without the dotted line. John - is the dotted line mentioned in the accompanying text, and can you also explain why there are two images for MT1 - MT4 ? Many thanks.

All the best
Stewart

[VergingOnDone]

What if also the spinning top was the shape of the weight? kind of like a bowling pin style (juicy mice? pick a mouse up by the tail- and it becomes a top. Dog's tail.. creep through hoop?) the thin end could conceivably fit into those holes in "A" and "B" it was also said that it was cyllindrical in shape in the middle but nobody was allowed to touch the ends (and that it may have had a hole in the center. "eye") That would explain the scratching noise, it was sliding perhaps?

Also the scissor jack seems to be the part that's spring loaded to reopen it once it is "fired" or set down upon. Any further thoughts?

[Jonathan]

Here is how I visualize it:
-The blue thing is a rachet, the peg above it keep the ball from rolling over it later, but the ball can fit under it.
-The red thing is a static obstackle that pushes the ball onto a spoke, its support is not shown.
-The non-spoke ramps start connected in the same plane as the spokes, but are at an angle in the z-direction so that they aren't in the same plane as the spokes on the rachet end.
-Gray is a ball, an edge, or a spring. Light gray is a 'ghost ball', just indicating where a ball would be.

[John Collins]

Hi Stewart,

You wrote "There are two MT1 images in MT - one with and one without the dotted line. John - is the dotted line mentioned in the accompanying text, and can you also explain why there are two images for MT1 - MT4 ? "

I think that there is only one MT1, the other is MT2, a different concept. If you are referring to the photocopies of MT then the other images in MT of the same drawings are there because the photographer of the original, duplicated many images in order to catch all the nuances of the drawings.

The accompanying text to MT1 says "The horizontal line must be preferably, level or have a slope such that one ball rolls toward the center from the rim, and the others roll out to the rim from the center."
Hope this helps.

John

[VergingOnDone]

Here is how I visualize it:
-The blue thing is a rachet, the peg above it keep the ball from rolling over it later, but the ball can fit under it.
-The red thing is a static obstackle that pushes the ball onto a spoke, its support is not shown.
-The non-spoke ramps start connected in the same plane as the spokes, but are at an angle in the z-direction so that they aren't in the same plane as the spokes on the rachet end.
-Gray is a ball, an edge, or a spring. Light gray is a 'ghost ball', just indicating where a ball would be.

Yeah you've got it right, to make it simpler just make a last slight ramp at the bottom of the 2nd shorter returning ramp to get it over to the first ramp again see diagram

[Jonathan]

I don't understand, how is that simpler? That would make the ball roll down the 3 o' clock spoke, down its associated return ramp, and onto the 4.5 o' clock spoke, but that spoke won't be ready to recieve it, so it will fall and land on the bottom of the device.

[Stewart]

Hi John

Thanks for the reply. I'm still a bit confused as the two photocopied pages of MT1 & MT2 have a different layout and different text, although the images are basically the same.

All the best
Stewart

[Guest]

I don't understand, how is that simpler? That would make the ball roll down the 3 o' clock spoke, down its associated return ramp, and onto the 4.5 o' clock spoke, but that spoke won't be ready to recieve it, so it will fall and land on the bottom of the device.

The 4.5 spoke would have a half pipe shaped like a "U" aligned to the foreground ramp to catch it once it hit the "last" return ramp sending it to the background, once spoke rotated 90 degrees, the "U" becomes a "C" --> letting the ball fall towards center again.

However there must be a further swinging counterweight to seesaw it up higher to get better efficiency.