Bessler's riddle explained!

[VergingOnDone]

I don't understand, how is that simpler? That would make the ball roll down the 3 o' clock spoke, down its associated return ramp, and onto the 4.5 o' clock spoke, but that spoke won't be ready to recieve it, so it will fall and land on the bottom of the device.

The 4.5 spoke would have a half pipe shaped like a "U" aligned to the foreground ramp to catch it once it hit the "last" return ramp sending it to the background, once spoke rotated 90 degrees, the "U" becomes a "C" --> letting the ball fall towards center again.

However there must be a further swinging counterweight to seesaw it up higher to get better efficiency.

I forgot to log in. In the Reidar PPM it looks like his pedulae may weigh the same or more than the actual revolving ball and thats the trick used by bessler too, by making the pendulation of the counterweights in rhythm to the rotation of the wheel / "weight" drop only a small amount of weight maintains the swing of the counterweights. Now to figure out the jack action and translate that into upward thrust. I just had a thought about how the actual pendula moves inside the wheel hold on!

[VergingOnDone]

I think I stumbled further upon some "new" info. but i don't have access to MT 113 (or even MT 130) I heard it was upside down too -MT 113, which seems to be a theme for our bessler, now I'm also certain he likes number 13 the MT 13 for example has two counterweights mounted on the axle (although it looks fixed), the larger at the bottom and the smaller of course at the top if you look at MT 138 (again with the 13 *and a sideways infinity!) upside down you can imagine the large hinging toy as the bottom weight and the top one as the top weight. I even think it shows the swing because it is offset slightly.

To learn further would anybody have access to: 31, 113, 130 - 137? So I can check for similarities please and thank you?

[Jonathan]

Almost all of them are here:
http://www.orffyre.com/mt.html
His 101-120 page doesn't appear to be working, but that could just be me. But 13 and 31 are there. Also, 124-137 are missing too, I've never noticed that before, I don't know if they're ever there or if that is my computer acting up again.

[VergingOnDone]

Thanks John I did see that site.

I was also thinking about the planet references and my mind wandered onto how the moon's force of gravity affects the oceans... so even a little resistive "force" actually offsets the normal force from the earth causing movement so the counterweights are offseting the "real" gravity on the wheel. Everybody can attest that the moon causes a high and low tide that is powered from the earth's orbit which is in turn attuned to the sun. These all work so why possibly cannot this translate to a miniature scale of say tide equals wheel turning and moon equals apposing pedulation(top weight) the earth is the bottom pendulation, and the sun is the pulling force of gravity. The universe functions like a huge PPM in my opinion. But there is some force making it work, the bessler wheel is just using gravity.

[Jonathan]

I wasn't aware that the sun had any noteworthy affect on the tides, I will look into this. I can't tell if it is the wording confusing me or your understanding of tides, but that description of the tides doesn't sound right.

Hey, I was wrong, I just did the sums and the force on the earth by the sun is about 3*10^22 N while the force of the moon on the earth is about 2*10^20 N. It then follows that the oceans, being some portion of the mass of the earth have some portion of that force on them specifically, and the sun is something that one would undoubtably have to take into account (barring an mistakes I've made).

[grim]

Thus the terms "spring tide" and "neap tide".

[Jonathan]

I've never heard those before. I had never heard of 'neap' at all, I just looked it up and apparently it refers only to a neap tide, there are no other uses for that word.
So, Verge, how were you thinking you could use the analogy of tides to come to some conclusion?

[VergingOnDone]

I've never heard those before. I had never heard of 'neap' at all, I just looked it up and apparently it refers only to a neap tide, there are no other uses for that word.
So, Verge, how were you thinking you could use the analogy of tides to come to some conclusion?

Some new thinking... the earth's spin: when a pendulum is dropped from a high point without any circular movement, over time as the pedulum loses momentum to gravity it starts gaining a circular motion, due to the spin of earth so Finstrud's machine must be absorbing this circular movement to power the ball.

Anyways, further thoughts from Bessler (The Triumphant Orffryrean Perpetual Motion) says he has a lower cylinder like a grindstone, have you see one lately? ( like a flywheel ) and that it is fixed on the axis (with 90 degree gearing). Check MT 13 and imagine the lower half of the center piece the half moon part is a flywheel rotating in place, always at 6 o'clock phase as the wheel turns, it would even the rotation of the wheel. What do you think? I made a rude illustration. If it was used in conjuction with the ramp idea and some kind of leveraging attached to the flywheel I think we might have something. MT 138 spinning top upside down! looks like it could act like the flywheel to me. What do you guys think of that.

[Jonathan]

This doesn't make any sense:

Some new thinking... the earth's spin: when a pendulum is dropped from a high point without any circular movement, over time as the pedulum loses momentum to gravity it starts gaining a circular motion, due to the spin of earth so Finstrud's machine must be absorbing this circular movement to power the ball.

If I'm not confused, you are talking about the pressecional movement of a pendulum, which occurs because the pendulum swings while the earth spins around from underneath it. Now I didn't entirely understand what you meant in that quote, but the very highest precessional velocity of a pendulum is .25 degrees/minute, and that is on the north or south pole. In order for it to acheive any noticable movement, the pendulum must swing for hours on end, and preferably be huge, so I don't think this is how Finsrud does it. However, I think that is an interesting idea, and though it wouldn't be a viable power source (and it would be harmful to make a high power one) I think it would be a very interesting scientific curiosity.
I don't think he could have used the grindstone like that, it wouldn't fit inside the wheel, but I do think that if you turned it up on end, it would have fit and possibly could serve some purpose. (By up on end I mean so that it rolls when the wheel spins, like a hamster in an exercise wheel, only the wheel would spin the flywheel/hamster, not the other way around.)

[VergingOnDone]

Okay here's a new thought about the dog and chain, and hoop. The toy MT 138 page, has a scissor jack, what if the arrow part on the jack was actually a weight and the direction was from inner to outer rim and back, and the area between cross sections of the jack were the "hoop" part that, and either or both the upper and lower pendulum hammer and arm toys would catch or hold these inbetweens on the way in or out, and the jacob's ladder was linked to the to the movement of the jack, holding it fixed and then towards center as the jacob's ladder was pushed on by the top hammer arm and fixed in place by the lower hammer arm in the peg holes along the pivot points on the ladder.

[VergingOnDone]

Okay here's a simpler thought about the greater than ninety degree idea from MT 1: a double hinge ramp (for one directional spinning only) that would work like this, on the outside of the ramp there would be a channel that would allow the ramp to go out of parallel by say 5 degrees movement while on the inside or end of ramp toward center, there would be a slight channel to let the angle be also out of ninety so the weight falling toward center and the opposite ramp would already be past the rotation necessary to fall to the outside.

[Jonathan]

Oh, the green things are slots, okay. So is this supposed to work as is, or is this part of a larger device?

[VergingOnDone]

I think it might be a little shaky without a heavy rim to keep the momentum or have a "flywheel" to keep it steady. But otherwise seems a viable idea, as long as the channels were built to slide smooth and steady.

[Jonathan]

Then I don't understand. How is it supposed to work? I see what the mechanism does, but I don't see how that make a perpetual movement. Maybe that is the secret, as all ones that fail have obvious reasons why they are supposed to work. I'll see if I can build a model tonight.

[Joel Wright]

Hi Verge Your wheel design is remarkable simular to my model that I ve been building, it is showing encourging promise.Since I realized that the angles of the toy hammer men could be important clues.{see post below}I don't have the computer equipment such as camera,s or the knowledge to use them so I can't post pictures.Imagine your posted design as a disk for mounting purposes OF CYNDRICAL WEIGHTS.If we take the moveable spokes{weights} and have them pivot half way between the hub and the rim from one end of the weight,with stops limting their movement at 22.5 in either direction from parallel.Straight up at the top of wheel the weights must swing in either direction 22.5 degrees.Imagine a logger running on top of a log.The weight must hit the stops in the middle of the weight.Think of this as hitting a hammer not with the head but as stubbing the handle against the edge of a table, the hammer(WEIGHT) wants to throw with more force this way.The stops set at 22.5 in either direction of weights parallel,total 45 degrees provide for dynamic balance around the travel of the wheel.As glorious as a peacocks tail.When I spin my as yet uncomplete wheel the weights sound like a horse clopping along the road. Leaf springs tension matched to the weight of the weights must be positioned to push or flip the cyindrical weights on its end pivot at 23.5 degrees before top dead center.The weight rest on the spring as it travels on the circular up movement, the weight of the weight compresses the spring resetting it against its previous stop,to cause its flipping movement at 23.5 degrees before top dead center.This does two things overbalances the top of the wheel and provides impact which drives the wheel.I believe the reason my wheel as of yet does'nt spin on its own is due to the fact that I don't have the proper swinging weight to fly wheel mass ratio.I think I need a ratio of 100 to 1.Fly wheel mass 100 pounds to spring loaded swinging weight mass 1 pound times eight weights.Or maybe I need the fly wheel mass more towards the rim of the wheel ,on the outside(outer side of wheel) of the spring loaded swinging weights I think its possible to have as many as 16 triangular division around the perimeter of a wheel and still have room for the weights to swing properly,but I believe that this is the design that will solve this enigma of Orffyreus.Joel Wright.............................................................. Re: Question to ovyyus

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Posted by JoelWright (205.188.208.9) on September 25, 2003 at 20:44:17:

In Reply to: Re: Question to ovyyus posted by ovyyus on September 25, 2003 at 15:00:00:

Thank You ovyyus. My observation of the Orffyreus wheels on the drawing page of Scots website seem to show the pendulem at position 22.5 or 23.5.Either this is a taunt to frustrate or a crital angle that must be adhered to.Do you know of any bessler references to angles or what angular measurement scale would have been used in the 1700's.Thanks ....Joel Wright ......: Hi Joel,

: The "toy hammer men" have been reproduced as accurate as I can get them from the original. Of course, nothing is perfect - I'd say +/- 1-2deg. You should also remember that my 'original' is a photo of a hand carved print block print and is probably pretty 'loose' itself. Hope this helps.

: Regards, ovyyus

:
: : Ovyyus, how accurate is the angle reproduction of the toy hammer men, I believe in figure 138. I get 23.5 lean back angle of the men.But I'm working from the computer screen.Could you possibly check your drawings and set me straight on the mans lean back,lean front angle.Thank You.................. Joel Wright






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: Thank You ovyyus. My observation of the Orffyreus wheels on the drawing page of Scots website seem to show the pendulem at position 22.5 or 23.5.Either this is a taunt to frustrate or a critcal angle that must be adhered to.Do you know of any bessler references to angles or what angular measurement scale would have been used in the 1700's.Thanks ....Joel Wright ......: Hi Joel,

: : The "toy hammer men" have been reproduced as accurate as I can get them from the original. Of course, nothing is perfect - I'd say +/- 1-2deg. You should also remember that my 'original' is a photo of a hand carved print block print and is probably pretty 'loose' itself. Hope this helps.

: : Regards, ovyyus

: :
: : : Ovyyus, how accurate is the angle reproduction of the toy hammer men, I believe in figure 138. I get 23.5 lean back angle of the men.But I'm working from the computer screen.Could you possibly check your drawings and set me straight on the mans lean back,lean front angle.Thank You.................. Joel Wright


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