PROCESS RESTART

[johannesbender]

I like the design Shadow but gearing will king maker this is somewhat like MT49. Also you are going to need a ballast / pendulum/ artificial horizon; what is going to hold it there?

JB: The buyer buys but never gets his full money worth , everything is achieved with a certain amount of loss , and so people want either more money or more for less money ,and so the world is governed by greed and this is the root of all evil , a trade-off eg. more for less .

I will say you see Bessler avoid leverage or get it back to neutral. But if Shadow's spiral is held by something else taking the weight then what does it take to spin it and lift? You can't just say there is leverage and therefore I give up without looking at what is happening.


This is the opposite what I was trying to achieve where here you are trying to slowly lift the whole column. Where I was working on fast lifting and slow descent.

Its the same force to turn and the same distance no matter what holds it , if its not 1:1 (drop : lift) there will be a difference (logically) in lift and drop distances because one thing moves faster than the other , even if you have the force in order such that the drop force is more than the lift force , universally referred to as MA (its no secret).

[daxwc]

JB: Its the same force to turn and the same distance no matter what holds it , if its not 1:1 (drop : lift) there will be a difference (logically) in lift and drop distances because one thing moves faster than the other , even if you have the force in order such that the drop force is more than the lift force , universally referred to as MA (its no secret).

Of course it matters is it easier to use a wagon or carry a heavy load. It is a vertical lift I understand your argument.

[daxwc]

Me: When you move a load in your wagon there is no distance lost. The distance you travel is the distance you travel. Yet a wagon is considered a mechanical advantage device.

Copilot
The concept of mechanical advantage (MA) is not necessarily about distance traveled, but rather about the force required to do work. In the case of a wagon, the mechanical advantage comes from the fact that it reduces the force needed to move a load.
Here’s a simple way to understand it:

1. Without a Wagon (No MA): If you lift a 50 kg load and carry it for 10 meters, you’re doing a certain amount of work against gravity. The work done (W) is the force (F) times the distance (d), or W = Fd. Here, the force is equal to the weight of the load, so F = mg, where m is the mass and g is the acceleration due to gravity. So, the work done is W = mgd.

2. With a Wagon (MA): Now, if you put the same 50 kg load in a wagon and pull it for 10 meters, you’re still moving the load the same distance, but the force you need to apply is less. This is because the wheels of the wagon reduce the friction between the load and the ground. So, even though the distance (d) is the same, the force (F) is less, and therefore, the work done (W = Fd) is less.

So, the mechanical advantage of the wagon is that it reduces the force needed to move the load, thereby reducing the work done, even though the distance remains the same. This is why a wagon is considered a mechanical advantage device, even without a “distance loss”. It’s all about reducing the force (effort) needed to do the same amount of work.

[johannesbender]

JB: Its the same force to turn and the same distance no matter what holds it , if its not 1:1 (drop : lift) there will be a difference (logically) in lift and drop distances because one thing moves faster than the other , even if you have the force in order such that the drop force is more than the lift force , universally referred to as MA (its no secret).

Of course it matters is it easier to use a wagon or carry a heavy load. It is a vertical lift I understand your argument.

We are talking lifting not rolling and carrying .

[johannesbender]

Me: When you move a load in your wagon there is no distance lost. The distance you travel is the distance you travel. Yet a wagon is considered a mechanical advantage device.

Copilot
The concept of mechanical advantage (MA) is not necessarily about distance traveled, but rather about the force required to do work. In the case of a wagon, the mechanical advantage comes from the fact that it reduces the force needed to move a load.
Here’s a simple way to understand it:

1. Without a Wagon (No MA): If you lift a 50 kg load and carry it for 10 meters, you’re doing a certain amount of work against gravity. The work done (W) is the force (F) times the distance (d), or W = Fd. Here, the force is equal to the weight of the load, so F = mg, where m is the mass and g is the acceleration due to gravity. So, the work done is W = mgd.

2. With a Wagon (MA): Now, if you put the same 50 kg load in a wagon and pull it for 10 meters, you’re still moving the load the same distance, but the force you need to apply is less. This is because the wheels of the wagon reduce the friction between the load and the ground. So, even though the distance (d) is the same, the force (F) is less, and therefore, the work done (W = Fd) is less.

So, the mechanical advantage of the wagon is that it reduces the force needed to move the load, thereby reducing the work done, even though the distance remains the same. This is why a wagon is considered a mechanical advantage device, even without a “distance loss”. It’s all about reducing the force (effort) needed to do the same amount of work.

I dont see the wagon and person carrying horizontal in the image , perhaps you need to look at what's happening ?

[daxwc]

johannesbender: We are talking lifting not rolling and carrying .

Are we not rolling the ball up the lift.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3kx1zMr4tg

[daxwc]

A spiral lift can be thought of as an inclined plane wrapped around a central axis. As the ball moves along the spiral, it experiences an upward force due to the inclined surface, which helps lift it upward. But here the distance isn’t lost in the X axis but it still travels a longer distance.

To break even the balls going down the circumference/rim have to be doing more distance than the balls going up the lift. That is probably isn’t going to happen but does give some leverage gearing allotment although friction is going to eat that up. That is just my opinion but Shadow is working on a place of interest to me anyway.

[johannesbender]

johannesbender: We are talking lifting not rolling and carrying .

Are we not rolling the ball up the lift.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3kx1zMr4tg

up and sidewards are different situations , you cant compare a wagon moving sidewards with lifting .

[daxwc]

Johannesbender: up and sidewards are different situations , you cant compare a wagon moving sidewards with lifting .

What is easier carrying a load up a hill or going up a hill with a wagon?

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Daxwc,
C'est peut être plus judicieux ce que vous faite!
votre solution se rapproche de la buzzsaw avec un seul poids sur la roue extérieure.

Hello Daxwc,
It may be wiser what you do!
your solution comes close to buzzsaw with a single weight on the outer wheel.

[daxwc]

The good attribute about the spiral lift is that it can be done right over the axle therefore not adding any leverage counter torque. Now, one just needs to get the torque needed to turn it.

I like the storage aspect of the spiral lift also an aspect of the other thread. Just like the wagon on the hill the wheel axle needs though to take a percentage weight. That was my point prior.

[johannesbender]

Johannesbender: up and sidewards are different situations , you cant compare a wagon moving sidewards with lifting .

What is easier carrying a load up a hill or going up a hill with a wagon?

This has nothing to do with lift and drop ratios though , when there is a different ratio for up and down no matter how easy it is , the ratio of lifting and falling would be different .

If you make the ratios for lift and drop distance the same then you still are dropping more mass than lifting , and when you make the drop amount of mass the same as the lifted mass but keep a distance drop and lift difference then you cant lift the mass the same height as drop.

[johannesbender]

The good attribute about the spiral lift is that it can be done right over the axle therefore not adding any leverage counter torque. Now, one just needs to get the torque needed to turn it.

I like the storage aspect of the spiral lift also an aspect of the other thread. Just like the wagon on the hill the wheel axle needs though to take a percentage weight. That was my point prior.

The counter force will be transmitted along the force transmission between the spiral and the wheel .

[daxwc]

Take two incline planes. Put them back to back with an axle in between. Now on one wrap it into a spiral. What is different the distance the ball travels, no. The mechanical advantage, no. The torque on the axle, yes.

[daxwc]

So in MT in several places he is pulling a load up the spiral/ incline/ curve but maybe he should be rolling it up like a wagon even if the incline plane is falling as long it is not falling faster than inertia. Example MT 16.