Besslers prime mover and its enabler.

[Roxaway59]

Here are some details about this wheel.

The springs have a damping setting of 1.
There is impacts where the blue weights hits the green stops.
There is friction where the blue weights move.
When the accuracy is on 960 the wheel limits its speed to around -4.10 rad/s.
The left side of the wheel doesn’t oscillate but the right side does.
The oscillation has 2 cycles to begin then later just 1.
The cycles coincide with the opening of the levers at about 5 o’clock.
The reason the wheel limits its speed is logical as the closing of the levers draws closer to the 5 o’clock position.

Questions -
Given that the wheel is weak is it possible to increase its power to a useful level?
How will it behave in WM2D?
Would it work better if the levers where on the Z axis?

Graham

[Tarsier79]

Firstly, I like the way the device appears to move and shift the weight. I like how the outer weight climbs out, then in and up.

I suspect the movement is an imperfection in the program. I look forward to the WM2D, but I am not holding my breath for it to work. I am not the best to replicate in WM2D.

I have built real world models vaguely representing some of the weight movement, IE similar to MT24, where a weight extends outwards and upwards, then back inwards where it is held through rotation, assisted by a spring and a smaller weight moving at 90 degrees. Mine was successful in its operation and provided what looked like OB, but didn't rotate.

Good luck!

[Roxaway59]

Thanks Tarsier79 and I like the way it moves too.

I would be surprised if it did anything special in WM2D but I think its best to try it to make sure.

I will post it once I have done it and optimized it as best I can.

Graham

[daxwc]

That is odd Roxaway59 . I don’t know. Never seen Agodoo run anything that complicated that smooth before.
Doesn’t logically make sense to me why it would speed up.

[Roxaway59]

Yes daxwc if only simulators were the real world.

As far as I can tell its the blue weight that is the main weight that over balances the wheel the next would be the yellow.

In this picture I increased the blue weights to 6g and added a tracer to both of them.

You can see that the blue weight takes up the shape we would all like to see on a working wheel.

Graham

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Roxaway,
N'y a t'il pas un problème de résonance au niveau des ressorts lors de leur oscillation?

Hello Roxaway,
Is there not a problem of resonance at the springs during their oscillation?

[Roxaway59]

Hi Shadow, there are three things affecting the springs -

Natural oscillation
Forced oscillation
And the fact that they are damped.

It appears to be the forced oscillation that is largely responsible for the timing of the main oscillation.

I would just like to clarify something about this design.

Although I like the way this mechanism works there is obviously something missing.

There is no real work around for the law of the levers but it is possible that this design has some of the characteristics of Besslers wheel.

With that in mind what is needed is a fresh look at the red and black weights to see if there is any way for them to lever the over balancing weights into position whilst keeping themselves balanced on the wheel.

Graham

[SHADOW]

C'est le dilem infernal!

It’s the infernal dilem!

[Roxaway59]

Just wanted to post an update and some things I have been thinking.

Later I will be posting the WM2D simulation of the last wheel I posted.

I am trying to get it to the point where it is a little more balanced and predictable. In my old version of WM2D it doesn't behave well. The simulation keeps freezing and complaining a lot of the time for no apparent reason. I am hoping that others with newer versions will have more luck getting it to run smoother.

I didn't expect it to go over unity because apart from anything else I couldn't see why it should.
What I hoped to get was a nice movement and I think I have just about managed that and the movement now is similar to Algodoo.

As I was trying to optimize the simulation I realised that some things I altered should also work better in Algodoo and I think this is the case.

One thing that did occur to me is something that may or may not be true and I’m not sure at the moment.

Lots of wheel types like the last one I posted attempt to lift weights with the use of a lever and the levering weight on the lever becomes the problem in creating an equal and opposite force which very often is a quarter of a turn later on a single crossbar.

The only way to stop this is to have a situation where the levered weight levers the wheel on one side only and as the wheel goes round the levering weights on their levers balance themselves out. Ideally this would be achieved with a single crossbar but that does not have to be the case if multiple crossbars can find a way to balance the levering weights out collectively.

So for me the question becomes not how do we go about making a wheel that is permanently over balanced because we all know how in part that is done. The question becomes how do we balance the levering weights out on the wheel whilst they are doing their job of levering the weights that drive the wheel.

For some of you I’m sure the answer to that question may be simple. I think your answer will be that you can’t do that because that in itself breaks the law of the levers. I must admit that at the moment I cant see clearly why that is but as always I am all ears for anyone who can explain it in a simple logical way.

Basically what I am thinking is this.

The levering weights are not just one weight but multiple weights that are able to arrange themselves in such a way that they themselves can balance out on the wheel.

Once again it sounds simple but is it possible?

Graham

[agor95]

...
The levering weights are not just one weight but multiple weights that are able to arrange themselves in such a way that they themselves can balance out on the wheel.

Once again it sounds simple but is it possible?
...

My best advice is to right down all the conservative mechanical operations, levers, gears, pulleys, springs, PE/KE etc

Then try to think what you can do without using those terms.

Regards

[SHADOW]

Bonjour Roxaway,
J'en suis venu à la conclusion suivante:
Tout poids effectuant un mouvement angulaire sur la roue doit être compensé par un contre poids d'équilibrage de ce mouvement!
C'est pourquoi je privilégie les déplacements orthogonaux.
C'est possible de compenser les mouvements angulaires mais cela reste très fastidieux.

Hello Roxaway,
I have come to the following conclusion:
Any weight making an angular movement on the wheel must be compensated by a counter balancing weight of this movement!
That’s why I prefer orthogonal movements.
It is possible to compensate for angular movements but it remains very tedious.

[Roxaway59]

Thanks for the comments agor95 / Shadow,

Another thought I have had is one that I wanted to post separately about but may be relevant to the previous one.

In electronics when people talk about signal processing there are two main trains of thought and that is digital and analogue.

I think its fair to say that most people on the forum wouldn’t think about the Bessler wheel as a digital system. However Bessler does hint at a digital embellishment on the Toy Page. One is the hammer men and the other is the jacobs ladder. Both these systems have the capability to switch states.

Why are digital systems used rather than analogue?

Most of us think of a computer as a digital device but the early computer systems were mainly analogue. One of the reasons that computer systems are digital is because a digital system has lower power requirements and these lower power requirements can be linked to Besslers wheel to a certain degree.

How do they handle power more efficiently?

Think of it this way.

Watts = Voltage x Current so you need both Voltage and Current to produce heat in an electrical component like a resistor or a transistor.

When a transistor is turned on resulting in 0V across its collector and emitter and say 100ma flowing through it that would be 0 x 0.1 = 0 Watts.

If on the other hand the transistor is turned off then the supply voltage may be across the collector and emitter but no current flowing through it so if the supply was 5V this would be 5 x 0 = 0 Watts.

Either way with a perfect transistor there would be no heat.

In reality there are no perfect transistors so there is usually a tiny voltage across it when its turned on but it is the time it takes to turn off and on that is the problem and because it cant do it instantaneously there is a certain amount of time when both the voltage and the current is present.

The hammer men may be a good indication that something switches on Besslers wheel but the knocking sound is also another give away.

Perhaps the best indication is what Bessler said about the excess weight rising really quick. Only something that switches abruptly does that.

To be honest I find it hard to imagine a better example of that than the one that Robinhood demonstrated. If that isn’t a switch then I don’t know what is. The weight suddenly switches from one radius to another and because of the sudden switch the wheel immediately accelerates.

On this thread I have very often wrote about the idea of hanging weights having the ability to be in two different places in no time at all. This is exactly what that idea does. It switches from being felt at the bottom of the wheel to further up at a smaller radius.

Its understandable that people tend to avoid sudden movements on the wheels that they design because for one thing it seems harder to control such movements and more inevitable that something is going to collide in a negative way.

However with some of the things hinted at by Bessler that things moved quickly its hard for me to dispel the notion that something abruptly switched almost like a digital circuit.

Graham

[Tarsier79]

A toggle switch arrangement needs to overcome the spring to switch states. Additionally, you need to lift the weight into OB, so more energy than we are getting out of rotation.

As for a weight being felt higher than it is: there are a number of factors to overcome... Rotational positioning is the issue there.

If you balance a weight with another, it becomes just that...balanced.

I suspect many people logically take the thought path you are taking to work towards a solution.

If Besslers wheel was a OU, it lifted excess weight into position to make the wheel OB....

[Roxaway59]

Hi Tarsier79, I'm not at all sure you are following my thought path and it isn't easy for me to follow yours. Think more along the lines of jigsaw pieces. Sometimes it helps to discuss them and ask where do they fit or even if they should be in the box and you would be following my thought processes better. I'm not always talking about a specific thing that by itself might work or might be the case. Sometimes when a television set goes wrong it might seem illogical to give it a sharp blow with your hand because you wont have the faintest idea what it will do but that doesn't mean it wont fix the problem. With this enigma there is no harm in talking about notions that occur from time to time because sometimes that can lead somewhere positive.

Graham

[agor95]

Hello Roxaway59

...
Why are digital systems used rather than analogue?
...

A thought provoking read. The journey starts with 'The Quest'.
But the journey continues into electromechanical versions.

When you think about it digital systems are analogue for time has to pass too change states.

The state change can be rapid; however when you zoom in 'slow motions' the transition is curved.

Some would say on the quantum level the change is instantaneous.
But that is because we do not have the method to observe the change.

There is a state change in the mechanical device. However the excess energy is from the swinging motion.

Could a swinging motion be replicated with an electric against the magnetic field?

Well yes I say lightly.

How can this be tapped? I expect as a net positive voltage. Like a net positive torque.

Regards