Posted by Øystein Rustad (217.70.229.39) on September 29, 2002 at 17:44:36:
In Reply to: The creation/destruction of energy posted by Davis Landstrom on September 29, 2002 at 12:45:44:
This can of course be argued perpetually :-)
No offence, I clearly understand you statements !
And could easily agree with you on all points,
but it is much more fun, letting the brain "run on its own"....
When a "law" (axiom) states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, I most certainly asume the opposite.
(Life experience:-)
That energy is either created or destroyed !
How can you tell the diff. of 1:1 destroying / creation,
and transfer ??
There is no way to tell the diff. but it is much nicer on paper, to say, it must be transfered, because maybe....a PM would be possible, and that is impossible, since Leonardo DaVinci didn`t make it, and Newtons laws of motion forbids it !?
And the whole idea is weird and childish..
I would say it this way :
As long as the universe exsists, there must be zpe.
zpe can be harnessed, either through gravity or magnetism..
Extraction of zpe do not influence the original zpe.
Ergo, The laws of thermodynamics is not an universal law for energy, but rather a law for energy conversion with 1:1 excahnge ratio !
As for heat engines, and all other engines buildt on an 1:1 basis.
Besslers wheel will break the thermodynamic laws because it will not drain the original source !!
That is the whole basis for that law !
And what about E=mc^2 ??
I posted that question on another forum...no one could/would even try to think about it. What laws must be changed after the Besslerwheel is replicated...???
E = not mc^2
E = mc^2 under certain circumstances... but I believe it actually show us :
If we split atoms, the universe (zpe) must fill the void and creates a chain reaction (implotion) equal to mc^2.
So the most brutal way of harnessing zpe is atom splitting.
Like :
How much energy is there in an egg ?
If the egg has 1 tonn balancing on the egg, and we break the egg, it releases 1000Kg * 0,05m * 9,8...?
So all energy comes from zpe and is always originally created from this !
Øystein
What is more important to discuss would be, what is energy ?
If aether/zpe etc.. is energy...
Then most likely gravity, magnetism, cashmir effect etc.. is a manifest of zpe. If thermodynamics is as overall rule, where are this energy coming from? or rather how will the "lost" energy be manifested... as lost gravity and decreased magnetic fields...?
A colapsing universe?
I think that looking at big bang as the only one to be allowed to create energy is pretty far out...
By the way, as I write I read an article of
Paul Steinhardt /prof. Princeton
Saying that we are facing a new big bang....how is that related to thermodynamics ?
: Energy can not be created or destroyed, even the existance of a perpetual motion machine like that of Bessler would not change this. RW, you cite as evidence of the creation and destruction of energy the idea that the earth is warmer today than it was 100 years ago. A physicist would tell you that this was not the consequence of the creation of energy but as a consequence of a local entropy increase, the energetic conditions here on earth fluctuate as a consequence of entropic decrease and increase, this occures because of two reasons, there exists large amounts of radioactive and fissile materials (Uranium-Thorium) in the earth's outer core, radioactive decay and fission release potential energy. Also the sun radiates energy onto us as a consequence of the release of potential energy from the fussion hydrogen atoms and as it happens, within the last 100 years the amount of greenhouse gas (CO2) has increased in our atmosphere (It is thought to be partly natural and partly a consequence of man). As a result some of the energy that the earth produces and some of the energy that it recieves from the sun is trapped and reradiated to the surface of the earth causing it to increase in temperature. The sun and the earth are both like giant thermal batteries, they were both formed with some potential energy (It can all be traced back to th believe that the existance of a perpetual motion machine violates these laws, take besslers wheel for instance, if genuine, it would have run on gravity, even today we know little about gravity, there is evidence from quantum gravity however that it might be caused by a 'radiant pressure' from the highly energetic electro magnetic zero point field. So Bessler's wheel is tapping (albeit rather inefficiantly) into the zero point field. It is thought by many scientists that there will be ways to tap more directly and efficiently into the Zero point field. See what I am getting at... If your machine is a genuine overunity then it is more than likely tapping into an alternative energy source. No violations of thermodynamics are needed for perpetual motion, in theory....