Re: Besslers wheel discovery

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Posted by Oystein Rustad (217.70.229.40) on September 27, 2001 at 18:10:01:

In Reply to: Re: Besslers wheel discovery posted by Scott Ellis on September 27, 2001 at 15:24:40:

Hi Scott !

I believed that question would come!
Cool site by the way, I wish only more drawings etc. where on the net.

In drawings and weighing etc. I can prove it, but not as an complete formula,YET (I have made an formula on this, but I don`t dare to let an mathemathics see it, YET. Have a math and physics professor in the family, that I hope will help me,but I must go gently ahed, not showing PM as a goal, he would laugh his brains out !

The summary is : Is it possible for an axle/arm to "feel" less weight moving an item from "bottom" to "top" than it originally would feel(or for example moving down on the other side of the wheel)( at low speed). I would say YES !
If yes, PM there is, as in Besslers wheel.
My construction will act 100% like Besslers wheel, ref. testemonies etc. even the sound..
There`s only one thing that don`t fit in, that is the springs.
I have made a drawing of what I believe is Besslers most advanced mechanism (with 4 armed, wheeled pendlum weights, it would have two spring... NEAT, but I don`t think it would produce any significant more power,
just more friction.
(This is by the way, how I think Besslers most advanced wheeled pendlum weights looked like) :

     0
     l
     l
0-------x----0
        l 
        l
        l
        l
        l
        l
        l
       /*\
       ***
        *

I could atatch 16 springs in my first model, but for no reason, regarding power...
But in what I believe is his second model it would be practical with springs and small pegs/hooks, 16 springs and 8 hooks..
Based on the same principal and making the same "noice"..
You would actually have to push (what I call) a double spring down after installing the weights to make the wheel turn !!
(It is a bit harder to make this wheel, but it would be the most fun :-)

When U say that U are working on mechanisms working with delay, and I look at my drawings, I can tell that "delay" is one of the reasons I believe Besslers wheel worked. Delay the action to where its more effective sort of speaking.
(Just a thought when U refered to delay)..

Best regards
from Norway

: Hi Oystein,
: Thanks for your post. How can you prove PM mathematically? I have
: found an article by George Biddell Airy (1829) that makes the following
: argument:

: PM is impossible using the known forces because the magnitude of
: a force on a body depends on its current position. If, however,
: the magnitude depends on the position of the body at some previous
: time, then PM becomes mathematically feasible.

: This conclusion was reached based on experiments with air passing over
: plates (like wings). For this reason, I have been focusing my efforts on
: schemes that involve aerodynamic principles. My goal is find a way
: to apply a force to a body using air pressure, thus
: delaying the force's action for a small period of time.

: What is the principle you have in mind?

Follow Ups:

Re: Besslers wheel discovery Scott Ellis 23:04:55 10/01/01 (10)
- Re: Besslers wheel discovery ANTON MAROSEVIC 06:03:43 04/04/02 (0)
- Re: Besslers wheel discovery anton marosevic 05:47:14 04/04/02 (0)
- Re: Besslers wheel discovery Scott Ellis 12:07:04 01/01/02 (2)
- Re: Besslers wheel discovery Adam 06:12:16 12/11/01 (3)
- Re: Besslers wheel discovery Scott Ellis 23:57:22 10/21/01 (2)
  - Re: Besslers wheel discovery Øystein Rustad 05:03:12 10/22/01 (1)
    - Re: Besslers wheel discovery keith adams U.S. 07:47:45 02/28/03 (0)
- Re: Besslers wheel discovery Oystein Rustad 11:44:52 10/17/01 (3)
- Re: Besslers wheel discovery Scott Ellis 19:08:14 10/14/01 (4)
- Re: Besslers wheel discovery Oystein Rustad 02:13:12 10/02/01 (9)

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Comments:	: Hi Scott ! : I believed that question would come! : Cool site by the way, I wish only more drawings etc. where on the net. : : In drawings and weighing etc. I can prove it, but not as an complete formula,YET (I have made an formula on this, but I don`t dare to let an mathemathics see it, YET. Have a math and physics professor in the family, that I hope will help me,but I must go gently ahed, not showing PM as a goal, he would laugh his brains out ! : The summary is : Is it possible for an axle/arm to "feel" less weight moving an item from "bottom" to "top" than it originally would feel(or for example moving down on the other side of the wheel)( at low speed). I would say YES ! : If yes, PM there is, as in Besslers wheel. : My construction will act 100% like Besslers wheel, ref. testemonies etc. even the sound.. : There`s only one thing that don`t fit in, that is the springs. : I have made a drawing of what I believe is Besslers most advanced mechanism (with 4 armed, wheeled pendlum weights, it would have two spring... NEAT, but I don`t think it would produce any significant more power, : just more friction. : (This is by the way, how I think Besslers most advanced wheeled pendlum weights looked like) : : 0 : l : l : 0-------x----0 : l : l : l : l : l : l : l : /\ : ** : * : I could atatch 16 springs in my first model, but for no reason, regarding power... : But in what I believe is his second model it would be practical with springs and small pegs/hooks, 16 springs and 8 hooks.. : Based on the same principal and making the same "noice".. : You would actually have to push (what I call) a double spring down after installing the weights to make the wheel turn !! : (It is a bit harder to make this wheel, but it would be the most fun :-) : When U say that U are working on mechanisms working with delay, and I look at my drawings, I can tell that "delay" is one of the reasons I believe Besslers wheel worked. Delay the action to where its more effective sort of speaking. : (Just a thought when U refered to delay).. : Best regards : from Norway : : Hi Oystein, : : Thanks for your post. How can you prove PM mathematically? I have : : found an article by George Biddell Airy (1829) that makes the following : : argument: : : PM is impossible using the known forces because the magnitude of : : a force on a body depends on its current position. If, however, : : the magnitude depends on the position of the body at some previous : : time, then PM becomes mathematically feasible. : : This conclusion was reached based on experiments with air passing over : : plates (like wings). For this reason, I have been focusing my efforts on : : schemes that involve aerodynamic principles. My goal is find a way : : to apply a force to a body using air pressure, thus : : delaying the force's action for a small period of time. : : What is the principle you have in mind? : : :
(Archived Message)

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