Posted by ovyyus (150.101.146.215) on July 13, 2003 at 16:10:46:
In Reply to: Re: Measurement Variations posted by John Collins on July 13, 2003 at 11:25:52:
Hi John,
Thanks for your response. In the interests of clarity I'd like to clear up a mistake in your reply. I'm sure you meant "12 feet in diameter" when you said "12 Leipzig ells in diameter" - 1 Leipzig ell being about 22.3 inches. It was big, but not that big :)
I agree that small differences in measurements are to be expected considering the age of the reports and the difficulties with translations. But I might point out that the reports of sizes, speed and work done presented by Scott is sometimes very different to my own presented data. Eg: Scott reports the Draschwitz wheel at 5 feet diameter, the Merseburg wheel at 6 feet diameter and some of the lifting and speed capabilities with specifications that I can't find references to.
It could well be that feet have inadvertently been used instead of Leipzig ells. The Draschwitz wheel is historically reported as being 5 ells diameter and the Merseburg wheel is reported at 6 ell diameter, so this could be (I think it probably is) the case. It is confusing for those not familiar with the measurement conversions.
I feel we can derive basic, accurate (within reason) wheel attributes from the historical reports. I feel it's important that we have a clear view of the evolution and physicality of Bessler's work in order to study various interesting correlations, such as the doubling of wheel thickness associated with his dual-direction design.
Thanks John.
Regards, ovyyus
: I would say that the problem with the varying measurements lies in the fact that in 18th Century Germany, measurements varied from city to city. It specifically states that the Kassel wheel was about 12 Leipzig ells in diameter. A Leipzig ell was slightly different to a Merseburg ell and also to, say, a Hanover ell. We don't know whether the witnesses took their own measurements or merely repeated those that they were given by the inventor. We also don't know whether the measurements were exact or approximate. To add to the difficulties the measurements were translated into English measurements in some case, so when the witness says the wheel was about twelve feet in diameter, we have no idea exctaly what that means. All we can do is take it as a guide and work from there. In the end the diffences are small, and in my opinion not worth worrying about since Bessler said that he had devised his final machine to be capable of revolving without having to worry about whether a particular weight was greater or lesser than another one being used.
: I assume that the majority of measurements have been derived from my book on the subject and therefore they all come from a common source. Other books written about Bessler derive from mostly the same sources as well, although I believe that I have found more original ones than they did, I think that the best we can do is assume for the time being an approximate measurement and refine them if and when the evidence arises.
: So I agree with Ovvyus, we can work with these figures and establish working hypotheses in order to replicate the original.
: John
: : Hi Scott,
: : I recently recieved an email from someone asking why the various wheel measurements listed on orffyre.com are so different to those on besslerwheel.com. I'm sure you'd agree it's a pretty good question.
: : Do you think it's possible to resolve these discrepencies, based on the available historical information? Or do you think there will always be subjective variations that will prevent exact knowledge on the matter?
: : My feeling is that we have enough solid historical data to make firm conclusions.
: : Thanks Scott.
: : Regards, ovyyus